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Do either of these have a health benefit for the human body?

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Do either of these have a health benefit for the human body?

Well, when it comes to saunas, there's actually a fair bit of evidence they might.

I was reading about some really important meetings that take place in saunas, too, in Finland.

Yes, we did pioneer sauna diplomacy.

I'm about to get into what is called the mental plunge - two to three degrees, and I'm not very good in cold temperatures.

Up to the shoulders. Up to the shoulders?!

How long am I meant to stay in? Two minutes.

I'm not staying for two minutes. I mean, you signed up for this.

So people say this is meant to be good for you. Apparently, it's meant to be good for your mental health. Give you all kinds of clarity.

Out the ice and into the sauna. This already feels so much better.

I can feel my muscles are just beginning to relax. My toes are defrosting.

Saunas, cold plunges, ice baths, it seems like they're everywhere at the moment. And today we're going to have a look at why that is, and also what the science says about how good for you they actually are.

I'm Hannah, and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service, brought to you from the sauna.

I am back in the studio now feeling a little bit warmer.

And here we have got Emilia Jansson, who is our resident Finn.

Hey. Welcome back.

Hello. It's good to be here. How are you, Hannah?

That looked amazing. It was pretty chilly.

I think I'm more of a warm blooded person than a cold blooded person.

I couldn't do more than ten seconds in the barrel of ice cold water.

I am proud of you for doing those ten seconds anyway.

Yeah, it felt really tingly and stabby, like my body couldn't actually tell the difference between hot and cold after a while. It was a really interesting sensation.

And that's one of my favorite parts about going to a sauna, actually.

Obviously, because I am from Finland, I've been going since forever.

I can't even remember the first time I was in a sauna, but that sticky feeling across your skin, that's one of my favourite parts actually, of going to a sauna.

And tell me, why do Finns love sauna so much?

Finns have always loved saunas. It's a huge part of our culture.

There are over three million saunas in the country, so people joke - well, it's also true that there are more saunas than cars in Finland.

You know, you usually have a sauna in your house, or if you live in a flat, you will have a communal sauna in the building that you can book.

So saunas are a very normal part of our daily lives.

You can have sauna nights with your friends where you have some drinks and snacks with your family. You know, Finnish grannies love to, in the winter, make a hole in the ice and then they go and take a dip.

Yes, take a dip and then they go to the sauna.

This is a very well-known Finnish granny activity.

Your Finnish grannies must be very healthy.

I mean, not everyone is as extreme that they go into an ice cold sea in the winter.

Sometimes it's just about stepping outside the sauna for a bit, for example, just to get that feeling of the hot and cold.

So it's not necessarily about sauna and cold plunge, it's just more about going to sauna and then having the feeling on your body of the difference.

Contrast, right? I was reading about some really important meetings that take place in saunas too, in Finland.

Yes, we did pioneer sauna diplomacy.

The godfather of this was called Urho Kekkonen.

He was president of Finland for 26 years.

And what he would do is, when political leaders, especially Soviet ones, would come to Finland, he would then take them to sauna and it would be this place for informal discussions and negotiations.

And the most infamous meeting was in 1960, when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev came to Finland, and Urho Kekkonen and Nikita Khrushchev went to sauna, didn't come back until five a.m., and afterwards it was announced that the Soviet Union were happy for Finland to move more towards the West and to have closer ties with the West.

So that was something really important that came out of the sauna.

We wanted to find out what actually happens to the body when it's put in these extreme hot and cold conditions.

So we reached out to James Gallagher, who's our health and science correspondent.

So just a little confession from me. I do love going to the sauna, when it comes to cold water therapy, not so much.

But do either of these have a health benefit for the human body?

Well, when it comes to saunas, there's actually a fair bit of evidence that they might.

So people in Finland who have been going to saunas for decades, they found that those going four to seven times a week have a dramatically lower risk of things like heart disease and stroke.

So it seems as though going to the sauna is good for the heart.

Now, the reason for that is because when you're in that intense heat, your body has to fight to keep its core body temperature the same.

So it opens up blood vessels all over the skin.

That's why you go bright pink and that is releasing heat.

But in order to do that, your heart has to work quite hard.

So it's like a mini shot of exercise.

Now, when it comes to cold water therapy, there's lots of ideas.

Things like improving immunity or mental health or again, being good for the heart. And the truth is, there's just not the same standard and quality of research as there has been in saunas. So there's still quite a lot of arguments around whether it does have those health benefits or not.

It's still being debated. Now, whichever one you go for.

There's a couple of things you do need to remember.

First of all is this is like exercise. It's not exercise.

So if I just whip out my kettlebell, here we go.

This is great for strength training.

It's really working my muscles whenever I use it.

However, you don't get that same benefit as you would do if you were going to a sauna or having a cold water splash.

It's like exercise. It's not exercise.

I'm just going to pop this down. There we go.

The other thing is that you need to think about your current health before you jump in the sauna or in a cold water therapy session, because they can be risky for some people because they are putting a strain on the human body.

So if you are pregnant, if you have other medical conditions, thinking of things like type two diabetes, or if you have heart problems, there are more, if you have anything like that, you need to have a conversation with your family doctor before you jump in.

Emilia, these cold plunges and saunas are getting really popular in lots of different places outside of Scandinavia now, too.

I mean, I even saw that there was a sauna rave here in London.

Why do you think this has caught on? And just how big of an industry is it?

In 2020, Unesco made the sauna an intangible cultural heritage of humanity, so recognised it as an important part of Finnish culture.

But as you said, since then, it's really spread across the world.

So the business consulting firm Grand View Research estimates that the sauna sector is worth around $950 million, and that's expected to increase to $1500 million by 2033.

The biggest market is Europe, with the Nordic countries and Germany at the top.

But the UK is creeping up that list, and actually, by 2033, it will be the largest market in Europe for saunas.

Maybe it's because we can't control the weather, but you can control the temperature of the sauna and the cold plunge.

And we have been asking you guys why you love going to the sauna and the cold plunge. Hello, my name is Ray.

I'm from Singapore, but I'm currently in Lobuche on my way to Everest Base Camp in Nepal.

Cold plunges and saunas and why do I do it?

My first ever cold plunge was in Solas Reformative in Singapore.

It was so painful and it took me so long, at least 30 minutes to get to the top.

But after I got to the top, I felt like I could conquer the world because it took so much willpower and mental strength to make myself willingly get into that cold plunge tub that I felt like once I was inside, I felt so powerful.

And like, for example, right now it's negative seven degrees.

All I can think of is it's just a cold plunge.

I first started doing cold plunges and saunas when I started ramping up my training towards my triathlons and hyrox [races], and I was just looking for the quickest way to speed up my recovery.

In terms of the physical effects, I do it because I do feel like it reduces the soreness the next day, but I really do it more for the mental strength because if I wasn't feeling awake before then I would definitely be awake after that.

It just helps me make sure I signpost my training blocks with proper recovery and resets every single time.

Saunas have a lot of physical benefits, recovery, nervous system regulation, all of that. But honestly, the real reason people love them right now is the social aspect of it.

So we're seeing this shift where people are drinking less, but they still want connection, energy, and a place to hang out.

And that's where social saunas come in with high energy.

And it's giving you music, heat, guided session and people going through something intense together that actually creates a stronger connection.

We've had saunas and steam rooms, hot and cold for a long time.

The Romans used to to bathe and use steam rooms and things like that.

But I think what we're seeing now is the commercialisation of them and how they're becoming like this - quite an exclusive experience, aren't they?

Yes. It's been interesting to witness the consequences of the sauna becoming more popular worldwide because as you say, for example, here in the UK, if you want to build a sauna in your house, or if you even want to go to a sauna, that can be quite expensive compared to the Nordics, where it's a lot more of a communal activity.

And so there are a few things that I find interesting that have kind of popped up as a result that aren't necessarily related to the original Finnish sauna culture.

In some aspects, it can be a bit of a status symbol because, you know, you tell others, oh, I go to sauna because you have the money for it.

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And some - And the time.

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And the time. And the luxury of time.

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Exactly. Whereas the sauna isn't supposed to be a status symbol, it's supposed to be something everyone can enjoy.

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And also, as you said, the commercialisation, it's become - in the UK, you know, that the sauna is more of a business, which means that the people who go there are more are consumers.

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And so some places might tell you need to have this sauna hat.

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You have to buy it, you have to buy this thing or that thing, when in reality you just need yourself.

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But that's quite interesting because in the Nordics, there is no business consumer aspect that there is in other countries where the sauna has spread to.

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And so, for example, when I go to saunas here in London, sometimes I will see these gym bros sat in the sauna, you know, they've been there for a while.

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You can literally see the sweat, you know, they're red in the face.

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They're checking their watches. They just look like they're in pain.

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And the sauna is not meant to be a painful experience.

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The sauna is meant to be something enjoyable.

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And it's like they're competing to see how long they can endure being in the sauna, when in reality, the whole point of a sauna is the hot and cold.

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So when I go to my summer house in Finland, you know, we go to the sauna for a few minutes, we go outside, we come back, we go in, and that happens many, many times.

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Yeah, I mean, people see it as an endurance symbol, that kind of competitive nature. When I went to the cold plunge, there were these little pink timers, these little hourglasses, and they went up to like two minutes.

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And I can't believe that some people could stay in two to three degrees for two minutes.

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Well, you should meet these Finnish grannies, then.

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They're harder than anything I'm ever going to be.

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Saunas are really interesting because they're dry heat, but hammam, steam room, they use wet heat.

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That's obviously been around for for ages.

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And also when you go to the Turkish baths, to the hammam, they like, scrub you really hard and like, smack you around with some branches.

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Do they do, like, skin treatments like that too?

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Yes we do. So we will have these leaves that we put together like branches, and then you'll dip them into some water and then you'll whip each other on the back.

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And that is actually because it helps with blood circulation and it's very healthy. So it's for the health aspects.

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And obviously saunas aren't suitable for everyone.

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So please do enjoy them responsibly.

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Thanks so much, Emilia. Thank you for having me.

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So we heard from some of you, but I want to hear from more of you.

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What do you make of saunas and cold plunges?

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Do you love them? Do you hate them? Let us know in the comments.

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And I also want to read some of your comments on an episode we did on getting rid of screens in schools.

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So one of you said that I think it's a good idea to go back to pens and paper in school without the constant distraction of push notifications and messages.

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Students can focus more on their teachers and learning.

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Besides, most AI tools come with clear instructions and children can learn how to use them quickly when needed.

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We also got this from Jorge, who said that I think the problem is not the use of digital books, for example, it's the use of high dopamine spike apps.

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People can't do slower tasks like before, and I really do feel that like my patience has definitely decreased since I've been on Instagram and TikTok and seeing all of this short form video.

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And lots of you said that it's actually about striking a balance and schools do still need to use devices for subjects like computer science.

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It is always so interesting to hear your thoughts on debates like this, so please do get in touch. You can leave us a comment right here below.

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You can send us a message on WhatsApp or on Instagram.

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We're at @bbcwhatintheworld. For now I'm Hannah, this is What in the world from the BBC World Service and we'll see you next time.

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The things I do for this programme, I don't even like the cold.

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