تدريب Shadowing: Are ultra-processed foods impossible to avoid? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service - تعلم التحدث بالإنجليزية مع YouTube

Hello, I'm Lucy Hawkins.

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Hello, I'm Lucy Hawkins.

From the BBC World Service,

this is The Global Story.

Ready meals, chocolate, biscuits, sausages, fizzy drinks.

We know that processed food is bad for us.

But recent research shows that in many countries around the world,

the majority of calories most of us consume are from products known as ultra-processed foods.

These foods are being blamed for an increase in ill health,

including heart attacks, strokes, obesity,

type 2 diabetes and even anxiety.

So how harmful are ultra processed foods for our health?

And given how common they are,

is it even possible to avoid them?

With me today is BBC health correspondent Philippa Roxby and Ruth Alexander,

a presenter of the BBC programme The Food Chain.

Good to have you both with us.

Hi.

Thanks.

Hi, Lucy.

Hello.

Ruth, I think we need to start with the basics here.

What exactly are ultra-processed foods?

It's industrially made food that's designed to be delicious.

Often the companies making them have really kind of hacked what it is

that we crave in terms of taste and they've put those tastes in as additives and often food that's marketed at you.

I mean you don't often see adverts for potatoes or eggs,

they're not ultra-processed of course,

but food that's packaged, displayed prominently,

particularly to appeal to children,

say, marketed and advertised at you.

Ruth, I'm now just mentally running through a checklist of everything that's in my cupboards,

in my fridge and freezer and I'm a little bit worried about what you're about to tell us.

So I know you've also been going through your cupboards,

what have you found?

I mostly cook from scratch so I didn't think I would find much but I found plenty.

Wholemeal bread, you know the sliced package variety that you find in supermarkets,

nutritionally good for you but ultra processed.

Fish fingers which I think of as a sort of quick

but healthy you know dinner time thing and I thought well

that can't be ultra processed it's just fish and bread crumbs isn't it?

It was ultra processed.

Mayonnaise, I'd had a little bit with my lunch when I was going around my kitchen checking things.

Ultra processed.

Mustard, ultra processed.

But the one that probably surprised me most of all was stock cubes.

I looked at them and they are ultra processed.

So that means that all those home cooked stews I did,

all that cooking from scratch I did actually was kind of undone.

If we start at the beginning of the day then,

what about Philippa cereal?

So many kids start the day with a bowl of cereal with some whole milk.

Is that okay?

It can be depending on the type of cereal you choose.

There's a lot of cereals that are sweetened so lots of sugar is added to them and actually you've got some here.

They look a little bit chocolatey.

There's definitely added sugar in there but then there's a lot of cereals

that have our whole grain and have fibre in them and are good for you.

So this is the slight issue with the definition of ultra-processed foods is

that you tend to think that everything in your your cupboard cannot be eaten.

But actually there are some that do contain the good stuff you need.

And it's just sorting the good ones out from the bad ones.

I mean, I think one of the things with cereal is

that they're marketed as being healthy for you and a really good start to the day,

particularly for kids.

And this is where scientists are really concerned, aren't they?

Because they say actually they're the driving force behind multiple diet-related illnesses can be in something as simple as your breakfast cereal.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean, there's evidence that children's,

the majority of children's diets,

particularly in the Western world,

are made up of ultra-processed foods.

So everything from, you know,

the bread they eat to the cereals to maybe the drinks they have at breakfast.

And that's a real worry because these kids are growing up.

And what will this do to their health later on?

I mean, there's lots of research,

growing evidence that ultra-processed foods aren't particularly good for us,

but scientists are still not sure exactly what it is about those foods that's causing the problem.

Is it the way they're made,

the way they're processed, or is it the fact

that they just contain lots of sugar and lots of fat as we can see here?

I mean we've got a table in front of us full of ultra-processed foods and just looking at them,

some you could say they're high in saturated fats,

salt, sugar, but there's some pretty innocent looking bread there as well.

I guess these are processed to last longer They're probably,

they look like sort of long life rolls.

So you want them to stay okay in your cupboard so you can eat them for say several days.

And that's why in the food industry,

they do process things to preserve them and keep them for longer.

So there are some reasons why processing is a good thing.

There are other reasons why processing might not be such a good thing.

Yeah, and I see, Ruth,

that scientists have done a big review,

the largest review of some of the evidence to date,

and they say there are 32 harmful health effects from some of these foods that are out there.

But looking at the table of food in front of us,

or even thinking about what's in our cupboards,

Is there any nutritional value or is there some hope there with some of these foods Ruth?

Well that's the thing and as Philippa was saying it's not known why ultra processed food might be causing harm.

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And it could be that there are some foods that are ultra processed that are absolutely fine for you.

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Like my whole meal sliced bread has got lots of goodness in it.

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It's got fibre, it's got added vitamins.

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it's not necessarily that everything ultra-processed will definitely be bad for you.

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And also, I mean, there's another category just down from ultra-processed,

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which is processed food, and that's not being criticised.

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But when I was looking in my cupboards,

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the dark chocolate that I would like to say is an occasional treat.

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Actually, it's probably quite a frequent treat, if I'm honest.

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You and me both, Ruth, I have to say.

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Keeps you going, doesn't it?

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It gets you through.

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But that was processed, not ultra-processed.

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Is it good for me in the quantities I eat it?

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I'm not so sure.

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Also potato crisps, another of my weaknesses,

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is another good one to look at because

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if they've got added flavour they tend to be ultra-processed but the plain salted varieties are not considered ultra-processed.

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Are they good for me? well they're full of saturated fat and have high levels of salt.

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Probably not actually.

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So it's not

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clear cut

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and it's as Philippa said it's not clear cut what it is about the ultra processing of food

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that that may be harmful.

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Ruth you and I share these guilty pleasures.

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I also love crisps I have to say as well as dark chocolate.

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So Philippa I'm standing in the supermarket aisle I'm looking at the back of a product what exactly should I look for?

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In the ingredients list you're looking for lots of things with very long unpronounceable names

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that you would not find anywhere in your kitchen as ingredients

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and those are probably they could be emulsifiers and additives

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and flavourings and colourings and they quite often have very long complicated names

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and that's a good indication that it's probably an ultra processed food.

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What else?

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It might have added sugars and sweeteners or fake sugars

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and it may say that it's sort of low in sugar

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or low in fat and make that sort of claim on the packet.

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And quite often it will come in a package and not look like the original food,

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not look like a whole tomato or a whole vegetable.

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It will be a sauce that comes in a jar or comes in a tin or comes in a package.

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Surely the picture is different depending on which country we're talking about.

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And I know in 2010 a group of Brazilian scientists said

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we should be focusing less on the nutritional content of food and more on the form of processing it undergoes.

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and they created this NOVA classification which categorises foods based on how processed they are.

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And Ruth, I know you've spoken to one of the scientists who came up with that system,

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Professor Jean-Claude Mubarak at the University of Montreal.

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Did they give you an idea of just how common UPFs are and how difficult and tricky it is to avoid them?

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They did.

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I actually asked for some examples of ultra-processed food

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and after about a minute of different foods being listed I

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realised it would have been much simpler to ask what isn't ultra-processed actually.

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So you know think of packaged snacks,

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sweets, biscuits, pastries, cakes, pizzas,

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cereals, I mean the list just goes on and on and on and the sales of this type of food,

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ultra-processed food are actually thought to be increasing around the world particularly in middle-income countries where the sales are rising

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and then in richer countries they're already pretty high.

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I mean you know yourself if you go to the shops actually you've got the fruit

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and veg aisle and then beyond

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that there are just many many shelves with lots of different packaged goods

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and if you look at the ingredients on the back it's often a long long list of ingredients

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so there is a fair amount of ultra processed food out there.

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Philippa, these Brazilian scientists only came up with the term UPF back in 2010.

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That wasn't that long ago.

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So how much more is there to find out about the impact that UPFs have on our health?

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Well, a lot more.

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It's really a fairly recent term.

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And there's been an awful lot of research in the last few years into ultraprocessed foods

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and how they affect our health and why that might be.

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And actually scientists really haven't come up with an answer to that yet.

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And so we really don't know whether it's the processing

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and these added ingredients that are added into the crisps and the bread and the cereals here.

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Is that the problem?

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Or is it just that we're going back to too much fat,

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too much sugar, too many calories in our diet?

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Philippa, how much harder is it if you've got a health or dietary issue,

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which means that you have to have these foods?

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I know I have a son who has celiac

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and a lot of what I go to buy him in the supermarket seems to have a lot of UPFs in it.

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And it's because it doesn't necessarily have the ingredients in it to make the food stick together

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or to last a long time or it has a lot of sugar in it to make it taste good.

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But there aren't many other options.

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Yeah, that's true.

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I mean, a lot of people do rely on processed or ultra processed foods for their dietary needs.

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Celiacs, for example, have to avoid foods that have gluten in them.

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So if you go to that particular aisle in the supermarket,

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you're going to find things that are processed because they need to avoid that ingredient and replace it with something else.

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And then there's things like baby formula milk.

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That would count as ultra-processed under this classification system.

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And yet it's something that's used worldwide by mums trying to feed their babies.

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And it comes from cow's milk.

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But it's had other things added to make it healthy for babies.

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There's also vegan foods, plant-based foods.

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They would also count as ultra-processed.

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And yet they're seen as very healthy alternatives to meat.

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I spoke to Jean-Claude Mubarak about the issue of,

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for example, infant formula and gluten-free foods and said,

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well, you know, like they're ultra processed under this Nova classification system,

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but people rely on those for health reasons.

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And he agreed and said,

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actually, he said, I view infant formula,

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for example, as medicine, not as food, but medicine.

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I'm a working mum

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and I'm starting to feel a little bit guilty at the moment about UPFs and what I'm feeding my family.

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It's pretty tricky because one of the messages is

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that we should be cooking from scratch

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and cooking at home in our own kitchens with food that we know where it's come from.

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But this is all really time consuming at the end of a long day.

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Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult,

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as we discussed, to avoid every single ultra processed food it's extremely difficult

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and if you're a busy working parent for example with young children

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you don't always feel you have the time to cook from scratch

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that means starting off with the with the vegetables and making the sauce from scratch perhaps and all the different elements

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of a meal and that can be time consuming

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and for some people it makes them a little bit nervous and a bit anxious and it's much easier,

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let's face it, to reach for something that's ready made,

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ready to go in the oven,

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ready to go in the microwave.

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It's quite often cheaper too and in these constrained times

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when we're all thinking about how much money we've got in our pockets,

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that is an easier option.

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Cost must be a big factor for some people when they're considering what to eat.

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I think it is and also people are time poor as well aren't they?

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Even just stopping to examine the ingredients on the back of packets in the shop.

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You know that's time that you probably don't have.

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When I discovered the stock I was using was ultra processed thought right I'll start making my own stock.

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Have I done that?

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No I haven't.

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I haven't got the time.

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I think like as Philippa You haven't got the time to go to the butcher

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and get the chicken carcass and bring it home and get the vegetables and put it in the pot.

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I mean yes you're right just simple stock is time consuming.

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Yeah, that's it.

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And, you know, when you can go and buy chicken nuggets in the store for very little money,

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a big bag and put it in the freezer and it's there when you need it.

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You know, that's that's what everyone is up against.

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So I was in the supermarket recently and it's the first time I've noticed this,

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that people have been standing in aisles with their phones out and scanning food.

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what kind of tech is out there to help us identify what's in the food

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that we're buying and what UPFs are there?

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Yes, you can find these apps which will tell you this is ultra-processed and also like how nutritionally,

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what the nutritional value of the food is.

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I used one in my kitchen.

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I must say they're sort of like once you get going on it,

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you know, I had to make a conscious decision to,

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OK, close the cupboards, put my phone down, just stop this.

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What you do is you scan the barcodes

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and it has a traffic light system where you're looking at green for nutritionally good,

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green for not ultra-processed, red if it's ultra-processed.

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And it just gets you thinking.

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As I say, there's something really satisfying about scanning a barcode and then finding out,

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is this good or is this bad?

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I was on a family holiday recently and we got the kids to do all the scanning of the food,

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which they thought was great fun.

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Any excuse to use the phone,

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I don't think they mind.

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As long as they've got the phone in their hands, they're happy.

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But it is quite a lot of effort to scan a product like this.

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And Chile has an interesting example of what their government is doing about UPFs.

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Ruth, tell us what they did to tackle high obesity rates.

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Yes, a few years ago,

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they brought in a system where they have black labels on packaging,

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which if it's high in sugar or in fat, for example.

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We did speak to people in Chile about whether they found those labels useful

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and they said that they did and they do try to avoid those black labelled products.

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And we asked them, you know,

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would you find it useful to have a label that said ultra processed?

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And they said, yes, they would.

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If we don't fill up a get on top of UPFs,

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what's going to happen in the long term?

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This type of food is so freely available and it's cheap and it's very Moorish.

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And of course, lots of people say that it slips down very easily

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and it means that you want more very soon afterwards.

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So potentially you eat more of that type of stuff because it slips down our throats easily.

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And if children grow up used to eating that way,

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that will continue into adulthood.

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So it's certainly a worry,

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but I think scientists have still got a job to do

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to find out more evidence about whether it's the processing that's to blame or whether it's the ingredients.

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And then also, I suppose we all need to think about,

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every country around the world needs to think about how we

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can help people choose more of the right kinds of foods and less of the wrong kinds of foods.

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But it's a big challenge.

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So any other hot tips,

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Ruth, about how we can realistically cut down on our UPFs?

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Probably the thing to do is to start with a small realistic step as well.

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If you're listening to this and thinking,

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you know what, I would like to reduce the amount of ultra-processed food I'm eating.

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Perhaps it's just making one meal in the week from scratch.

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If you're vegan and you're relying on plant-based meat substitutes,

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which are often ultra-processed, perhaps think about substituting that with lentils and beans,

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which can bulk out the dish.

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I mean, if you just think about what you're drinking with a meal,

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go for water rather than a carbonated sugary drink which would be ultra processed.

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That might not be so popular with your children though but I'm just saying you could try to do that.

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Interestingly a colleague tried to give up ultra processed food for a month in January and she failed on day one.

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She went to the pub wanting a non-alcoholic drink

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and all the drinks there were ultra processed but I did say to her you could have chosen water, sparkling water.

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But she just moved on,

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she didn't comment on that one.

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But you know, a quick meal that I enjoy is an omelette sandwich.

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The problem, I mean the omelette is not ultra processed,

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but I suppose the problem is the bread I'm using,

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it probably is ultra processed.

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And if you want to find non-ultra processed bread,

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just processed bread, then you're going to have to go to a bakery

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and that probably will cost more money and it will go stale quicker.

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But you can put it in your freezer and make it last longer if you have a freezer.

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That's true.

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People tend to think that if you freeze something, it's a bad thing.

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And freezing is just another process.

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But actually freezing is a great way of making something last for longer,

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as Ruth was saying, sliced bread,

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where lots of people in lots of countries are very fond of sliced bread.

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And the problem with this classification is you tend to think you can only buy very nice,

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very expensive, rustic, whole grain bread.

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And that's the only thing.

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Barmer's market bread or bakery bread.

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We know how that expensive that is.

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So very difficult for families to make that choice.

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And sometimes just buying a sliced brown bread from the supermarket is fine and then you can freeze it and store it.

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And also, I mean, something that I often make when I've got vegetables that are about to go off,

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I make a soup, just get them all in there and make a soup.

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And I do put, as we know,

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an ultra processed stock cube in there,

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but at least it's a pan full of fresh

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or just about fresh vegetables otherwise

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so you know um there can be some compromise in there yeah i think

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so well that's how i'm living anyway ruth it would be lovely

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if you were here with us but maybe it's best

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that you're not

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because given our weakness for crisps i've got some on the

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table in front of me it's going to take every bit of my willpower

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not to polish them off but it's been lovely to have you with us thanks

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so much thank you very much and uh yeah i'm i'm pleased to have avoided

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that bag of crisps can we resist No, definitely not.

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Thanks so much, Philippa.

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Thank you.

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