शैडोइंग अभ्यास: Are food price caps necessary or doomed to fail? | BBC Question Time - YouTube के साथ अंग्रेजी बोलना सीखें

Delivering a price cap that makes sure that farmers,

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Delivering a price cap that makes sure that farmers,

fishers, other producers don't lose out is going to be difficult.

It's not nearly as difficult as being that child who goes to school on an empty stomach.

Should we implement a price cap on food in order to reduce food poverty and ease the cost of living?

Or is that simply unworkable and doomed to failure?

Would you welcome it, Mary?

I personally am not sure.

I heard what the retailers had to say yesterday when the Treasury explored the idea of limited caps.

So we know what they think.

I'd be really interested to hear what the panel think.

We clearly have a problem.

OK, so we've had two different ideas coming up.

We've got the government at Westminster talking about,

well, sort of like various ideas being mooted,

possibly a voluntary cap, although that now they seem to have decided maybe not to do that.

And then the SNP, you want a compulsory cap on food.

Is that going to work or is it doomed to failure?

Absolutely we should do this.

I mean, I have spent the last six and a half years in politics

outraged at the fact that there's people in our communities who can't get by.

So many of them rely upon food banks and upon food pantries and they can only do so much wonderful work.

But for so many other people who don't want to access those facilities or who can't access those facilities,

they're going into the shops and they're seeing prices balloon absolutely go through the roof

and I think it's absolutely incumbent upon politicians of all colours in

that context to try and ensure

that people's basic needs the ability to feed themselves can be

met now what we are seeking to do is bring forward

legislation in the first 100 days of this new government to to ensure

that that we can cap the price of some specific items

that we all find in our shops and

that people really need in order to have a good healthy

balanced diet I think that's a pretty noble thing to do I think it's the right thing to do

and I'm at a loss as to why an individual who

sits in the house of lords would seek to have a disagreement with

that maybe it's because he's completely out of touch with working people in this nation.

Explain to us how it works, Stephen.

So who would make up the price differential?

So if you've got something that is costing,

let's say, I don't know,

a pound at the moment,

and you want to reduce that,

who is going to make up that shortfall?

Is it the farmers?

Is it the supply chain?

Is it the supermarkets?

Who's going to make up that shortfall?

Well, I'm pretty familiar,

and I'm sure everyone in the audience is pretty familiar with some of the enormous bonuses

that have been awarded to people who sit at the top of these retail giants.

I think there's certainly space within those companies given the sheer size

and scale of them to absorb a little bit of pain in order for the gain or good to be net.

Even if they cut their bonuses to zero it wouldn't cover the cost.

Seriously who's going to cover the cost?

So the challenge

that we are setting them rightly is to do their bit to look after our fellow citizens

and I think that's the right thing to do.

And how will you make sure it doesn't impact farmers?

There's obviously going to be anxiety amongst people in our farming communities

and our fishing communities and we'll be making sure

that we consult with them fully because they're hugely important to Scotland's economy

and Scotland's supply chain but

so too are people who need good healthy balanced diets in our country

and we should be looking after them as a government.

Thomas?

The reality is the SNP's plan was a gimmick.

This was used during the election campaign to try and grab some headlines because the SNP needed something to try and do.

That's exactly what this policy is.

We've seen this in history,

and it's never really worked.

All that ends up happening is people end up going to buy food in bulk.

We've seen farmers that get into trouble.

We've seen small retailers that then struggle as well.

This isn't just going to hit big supermarkets.

And the reality is this is a stushy that the SNP are looking to fight with with Westminster.

That's what they're trying to do here.

That's what Stephen's trying to do.

The legislation he brings forward is not competent within the devolution settlement.

It's going to have a fight in terms of the Internal Work Act.

So there's going to be a fight with Westminster.

That's what the SNP want because they consistently live off grieving machines in grievance fights with Westminster.

I don't want to see that.

What I want to see,

because what Stephen said about the cost of living is absolutely right.

It was the number one issue when we were travelling about the country,

campaigning over the past few months,

was people were saying that they couldn't make ends meet.

So here's an idea.

Let's cut taxes.

Let's put money back in your pockets.

Let's end the gimmicks.

Let's end the gimmicks and the headline grabbing,

and let's just finally put money back in people's pockets,

because right here in Scotland, we are overly taxed we're overly bureaucratic,

let's put more money into your pockets,

create economic growth and invest in jobs.

That's how you tackle poverty.

Man in the blue shirt.

It's a good idea to make sure that people can afford a balanced diet,

but in an area like this where there's so much local produce,

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you don't have big supermarkets necessarily in the middle of the supply chain.

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If you've got quality produce being produced and the costs involved in

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that

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because the costs in production are usually outwith the control of

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the producers fuel costs due to global pressures how then are

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you going to encourage producers to continue to produce the good

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stuff i appreciate what you say mr flynn regarding the supermarkets etc

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but do you really think they're voluntarily going to cut their profit margins they'll pass it on to the people

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that are dependent on selling their products to the supermarkets,

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and it's them that will end up out of pocket.

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The man further back.

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Yep, the new government there,

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I think it would be a suggestion to take a step back,

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look at the root causes of where these problems are coming from.

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We're having increases in minimum wages,

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other expenditure that for businesses is constantly rising and rising,

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which in turn puts that additional cost onto the overall food cost.

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So I think taking a step back and looking at it from a further back angle would be a suggestion.

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Woman there with the glasses.

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Yes, with the glasses.

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What product are you going to actually cook back on?

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There's staple diet, potatoes, bread, milk.

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Today I heard on the radio that they were going to cut prices on imported biscuits.

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So I think we're getting two things conflated here.

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So what you've got is the SNP suggesting a compulsory legislation to reduce the prices of certain goods,

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yet to be ascertained exactly which they are as I understand it.

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What you've got is the government in Westminster cutting tariffs on certain goods that are imported.

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So let's find out more about that.

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Kirstie, what difference is that going to make?

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So a direct answer to the question,

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no I don't think we should adopt a mandatory proposal

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and Stephen Flynn says that the SNP government will consult on this

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and consult with farmers and hear what they have to say but they've already told us what they have to say.

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Farmers and retailers have already told us that they don't believe that this is a workable proposal.

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Is that why you dropped the idea of,

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I mean it was quite clear in Westminster that there politicians briefing it out,

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that the government was looking at introducing something very similar to what the S&P is suggesting,

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but on a voluntary basis.

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Then all the retailers went,

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you must be joking, this is a crazy idea,

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and suddenly everyone went very quiet.

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What the UK government was doing,

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as you would expect and hope,

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was in ongoing dialogue with the supermarkets,

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because you are right to say,

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Mary, that the cost of living is the number one question facing everyone right across Scotland and right across the UK.

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So of course we are in dialogue with supermarkets about how to bring down prices.

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There's two things already in train.

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One is the cutting of tariffs on a range of goods that we hope will bring down food prices.

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We also have the EU deal that will be coming on stream this summer

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that the supermarkets have said will bring down food prices.

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But we have to bring down the price of a number of things that make up pressures on family finances,

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which is why we've also done work on the £150 of energy bills.

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It's by the Chancellor today announced a series of summer savings

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so that families can look forward to the summer holidays with excitement

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and optimism and not dread as so many of us parents feel right now

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that it's a time

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when we don't know how we're going to be able to

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get the child care we don't know how we're going to be able to okay

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but let's come back to the tariffs because last time um

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and this is under the conservative government

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but last time VAT was abolished on something it was tampons

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as it turns out um the savings were not passed on to customers

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so how can you guarantee that these cuts in tariffs will be passed on to customers.

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Well, as I say, there's a whole package of measures that have been announced today.

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I know, and you've told us about those

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but in terms of cutting the terrace on food how can

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you guarantee that's going to be passed on to customers well

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so there's an ongoing challenge and we've heard it from the audience

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that there always has to be dialogue with retailers to make sure

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that savings are passed on but can you guarantee an unworkable mandatory scheme

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which as we've already heard is not incompetence of the scottish government

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and the scottish government okay can you guarantee the people sitting

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here who for example go south you know the board is not

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that far who goes south the border to buy things

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when they're there can you guarantee that as a result of the tariffs

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that you are reducing or abolishing

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that they will notice a cut in the value of the things

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that they are buying i believe i believe

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that life will become more affordable as well of the tariff cuts

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and a number of other measures that we have introduced not just today

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but um in the past few days the extension of the

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freeze on fugitive for example there's a package of measures harriet

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i completely understand the sentiment of why both governments want to make the cost of living more more affordable

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and that's completely right we do need to look at cost

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of living it's what impacts everybody every day it's what people worry about

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when they go to work when they open their pay slip But this capping prices,

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whether mandatory or voluntary, is not the way to do it because it's not going to work.

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As we've already heard, how will the prices be passed on?

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Where will these costs actually land?

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And we're sitting here in Dumfries,

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in the heart of the dairy farming sector in Scotland.

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Our dairy farmers here, they know that they will pay the price for this,

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as with the rest of our farmers.

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And it's not a surprise that the farming community are so worried about this.

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because in the last almost two years since Labour came to power,

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they've been hit time and time again.

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It was either the family farm tax or the fertiliser tax or tax on their pickups.

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They know what to expect when Labour start looking at price caps because they know it's going to land in their pockets.

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Similarly, when we look at the overall cost of doing business,

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both governments have been hitting businesses over and over again,

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whether it's a huge increase in business rates that we've seen under both the SNP and Labour,

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whether it's the Employment Rights Bill,

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which has put a huge amount more bureaucracy,

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the national insurance increases that has made the cost of doing business so much more expensive.

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It's not a surprise that prices are rising when the cost of doing business is rising.

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So what the government should be doing is looking at cutting bureaucracy,

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cutting red tape, reducing the cost of doing businesses,

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so those margins do not have to be made up in other ways.

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And it's right that consumers are concerned about how much food costs.

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but putting some sort of cap on food which is not possible

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and as we say will not actually result in the savings that they think is not the way to do it.

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There are countries that do it,

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so Croatia, Hungary, France has put in place a scheme doing it.

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And in many of these places we see food shortages

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if all the products go on it and then in which case it then just doubles up.

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So we as I say the way to do this is

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to reduce the cost of doing business take away those big costs

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which means that price has got which means inflation goes up there's a reason why

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and at the time the general election inflating was 2% is now higher than

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that much higher than that that's because the cost of doing business

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and therefore the cost of essentials has gone up over the

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last couple of years can I just ask is there anyone

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since you've mentioned farmers is there one for anyone connected to

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the farming community here at all right let's hear from the

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woman at the back you are in the blue sweater are you yes let's hear from you

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and then did you were you in the glass yes in

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that man yes off you go

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so what do you think about this idea from the s yeah well well i think

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that if the smp government wants to implement

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that you really need to make sure that we're going to guarantee

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that this isn't going to affect farmers and their prices you know going forward

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because we're we're always affected by loads of other global pressures minimum wage

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and everything else like that so how can you guarantee

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that farmers won't suffer okay i'll get you to answer

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that in a minute let's just hear from the man in

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the glasses you're what's your relation to farming then yeah we have a relatively small farm um wife

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and i can't afford to employ anyone

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because it just wouldn't be commercial uh to do so uh

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and it washes its face uh but it washes its face

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because we are contributing So we both have full-time jobs as well as making the farm work.

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And when you're then adding on cost of living costs and all the costs that operate around and about the farm,

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it's just not feasible.

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And that's then if you're asking us to cap prices,

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whether it be animals going to market,

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whether it be produce that we are selling on, it's just not feasible.

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So you're actually then strangling business and actually adding to the cost that you're trying to actually save.

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And I just wonder if there's a side angle to this,

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that the Scottish National Party are very progressive with their taxation, for example.

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And they have these powers,

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but they don't seem to use them in a way

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that would actually make a difference to actually everyone that they're supposed to represent,

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whatever the political flag.

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Okay.

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So, this policy is not something the SNP has come up with overnight.

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It was in the manifesto.

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Clearly, the impact on farmers must have been something that you have considered.

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So can you guarantee these people here,

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farmer, and you're a farmer as well,

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that their margins will not be affected by this compulsory cap?

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So the commitment that I can make to you today,

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and I think it's an important one,

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is, and I say this knowing that the First Minister himself represents a rural constituency

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and is heavily embedded in the issues which have rightly been raised in respect of the challenges facing our farming community,

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is that we will do everything we possibly can to get this right,

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get this right for the people who require the ability to afford food and indeed...

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That doesn't mean anything to them.

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You're saying we'll try and get it right.

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What I'm asking you very specifically is can you guarantee that they will not lose money as a result of this cap?

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The commitment that I can give to you,

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which I think is very important,

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is to make sure that we get this right for you so that we don't have these impacts,

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but we also get this right for the people who can't afford the basic essentials of life of life.

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All the other panellists I have listened to so far,

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although Ross might disagree with them, want something to happen.

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But none of them are saying how they are immediately going to help people in a cost of living crisis.

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And you have made that point, Stephen.

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What you have not done is guarantee that they won't lose out.

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And the people have elected us to deliver on this,

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and that's exactly what we are going to do.

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So it's not going to be another broken promise?

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In the last election, you saw the promise of teachers,

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promise of free stuff, promise of everything over and over again.

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The SNP always made a promise.

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So the price cap on food,

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is that the mandatory price cap on food brought into legislation,

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do you support that idea?

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A price cap would be difficult,

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but we should be trying to do difficult things.

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This is one of the richest countries in the history of the world,

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and yet we have thousands and thousands of children who go to school hungry each morning because of food poverty.

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So yes, Delivering a price cap that makes sure that farmers,

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fishers, other producers don't lose out is going to be difficult.

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It's not nearly as difficult as being that child who goes to school on an empty stomach.

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So I want us to deliver a price cap

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that actually reduces the costs for everyone who needs to put food on the table,

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but that also manages to make sure that farmers,

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fishers, other producers don't lose out and I have a lot of sympathy with the arguments they're making.

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Who I don't have any sympathy with are the,

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when we talk about the retailers,

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the voice of retailers in this debate is the voice of the big supermarkets, not small businesses.

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Tesco just reported, what, £2 billion in profits?

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This is an incredibly lucrative time to be a supermarket right now.

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So I don't have a lot of sympathy with them here.

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I think we should be trying to come up with a price cap that makes food affordable for ordinary people,

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that still gets the balance right for your farmers, fishers, other producers.

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The reality here, the problem that we've got in the system is in the middle.

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It's supermarkets who are still making obscene profits out of the fact that they can keep charging people more and more.

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Because in a lot of communities across the country,

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the only place that you can go,

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the only place that you can go to get your shopping is a supermarket.

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You're at the mercy of whatever prices they set.

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That's the issue that we've got here.

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And it's not just in the case of basic foodstuffs.

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Think of how much we're all paying in our taxes to deal with the cost

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and the damage that's done to people's health through alcohol, for example.

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Supermarkets sell huge amounts of cheap alcohol.

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They make a massive profit off of that.

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They're not contributing their fair share towards the impact that then has on the health service.

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So we should get the balance right here.

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We should be doing something that makes sure affordable food is on people's plates,

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that farmers and fishers don't lose out.

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But let's not forget the people in the middle jumping up

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and down the most about this are supermarkets posting multi-billion pound profits right now.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Let's move on to another question.

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