Pratique du Shadowing: Inside China’s intense work culture and holiday system - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service - Apprendre l'anglais à l'oral avec YouTube

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Across Asia, millions of people are taking time off work for the Lunar New Year holiday, and for the first time ever, workers in China are getting nine days off in a row in an attempt by authorities to ease the pressure of an intense work culture. But there is a catch.

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Unlike most other countries, those nine days include the weekend, and employees will also need to work a couple of Saturdays.

So what's the logic behind the country's unique rules for taking leave, and will China's demanding work culture ever change?

I'm Mariko in Singapore and this is Asia Specific from the BBC World Service.

Twice a week we bring you Asia Pacific stories unpacked by those who know them best.

And today I have Fan Wang, a news journalist with the BBC Singapore bureau.

I also have Stephen McDonell, a BBC correspondent based in Beijing.

Welcome both to Asia Specific. Hello.

It's great to be back today. Good day. How are you going?

As Australian as you can get.

Stephen, you've been based in China for more than 20 years now, so I'm assuming you have covered this annual event from various angles many times before.

But for viewers and listeners who might not be familiar, can you just tell us what it's like?

And exactly you know, roughly how many people are on the move at the moment?

If anyone's been here at this time of year, if you've been on transport, you can see the scale of it.

It's just it's phenomenal. For this city, interestingly enough, it's going to go quiet.

Beijing empties and we'll have less than half the population.

And that's because so many people who are not from Beijing live in Beijing for work.

And then around comes the Chinese New Year, and they want to go to their home towns. And so they're all pouring out of here.

But in terms of the numbers, just to give you an idea of it, I did have a bit of a look at it. I'll see if I can read them out without my glasses.

But, I know look, I will go with the glasses.

I think we better get it right. I completely get that.

Hands down glasses on. Right.

So we're talking 9.5 billion passenger trips.

Billion? Not million? 9.5 billion.

Now, the reason it's that many, it's because they're counting at trips, not a person. So one person could do multiple trips.

And that's what that's why there are so many of them.

But when we say trips, we're not talking about you having a trip from your home to your office.

We're talking about a trip from... Journey. Yeah. Okay.

You might have I might go just say I was going to Sichuan.

I might take the train there. I might go somewhere else with my auntie.

Then I might come back to Beijing. That's three trips for me.

So if you're counting each one of those as a trip, it's 9.5 billion.

Now, in terms of the breakdown, just rail alone will carry 540 million passengers this year.

They're expecting on the planes, 95 million.

I mean, imagine the logistics of all this organizing it And in terms of the trains, the trains are, it's amazing to go to a train station this time.

People are carrying all these presents, home and food and what have you.

Rail services, 13.5 million passengers a day.

Wow. Incredible. Fan, this episode was actually your idea, wasn't it?

Because you told us that Chinese holidays work very differently.

So while millions of people are on the move, can you explain why the system works differently from other countries?

Of course. So, yes. So Chinese holidays, every year the Chinese government gave people holidays for seven different occasions.

And the Spring Festival, the one they were talking about is the biggest one.

And that's also where people enjoy the longest break of the year.

So actually, I can show you, I have a calendar here.

Apologies to those who are listening to our show right now.

You can pull up the calendar on your phone.

So here are the dates from the 15th of February to the 23rd of February this year. Nine days in a row.

People can enjoy the time off. And this is kind of the longest, isn't it? This is the longest in recent times, I think, for Spring Festival.

But there's a catch. There's a trade off, which is you need to work the weekend before and the weekend after.

So this time, you need to work on the 14th of February.

Oh, the Valentine's Day. You need to work on that Saturday.

And also the 28th, the last day of February, another Saturday.

And there are three weekend days included in this nine day period.

So if you deduct all these it's actually just four days.

Wow. So that is quite a different system. Yeah. They call it adjusted rest in Chinese it's called 'tiáo xiū'.

So they always group weekends, nearby weekends with, the like weekdays together.

So working on a Saturday. Is that a common thing in China?

Not necessarily to make up for your long holiday.

With the slow economy and more demanding work schedules, a lot of companies do require people to work at least one of the weekend days.

Or they also, some companies also have this big week and small week system, which means you take one of the two weekend days off for for the first week, and then you get the full weekend off the next week.

And those weekends, the before and after that you have to work.

If I understand correctly, it's called make up days.

Is that right? Yeah, you can call it.

That's how you call it in English to help you better understand it.

But in Chinese they call it tiáo xiū. So like adjusted rest days.

Okay. Stephen, can you tell me how did this start?

This, you know, history of make up day?

Can you tell us how it started? So the tiáo xiū or the make up days, it goes back to, funnily enough, it's the Asian financial crisis that kicked it off.

Because the party, well, after the communists took over in 1949, announced a certain number of public holidays.

But then in the late 90s, China, like many Asian countries, was going through the economic doldrums and they wanted to give the economy a bit of a boost.

Now officials are thinking, how do we do this?

How do we get people moving around, spending more without giving them more days off?

And so what we're going to do is we're going to introduce this system whereby you can work a few extra days on either side of a break period and thereby have more days off in a row. If you've got more days off in a row, the theory goes that you'll travel somewhere.

You might go to your home town, or you might visit a new place or something.

Spend more money, plane tickets, hotels, you name it. And it has worked.

I mean, when these holiday periods happen, I mean the economy, especially like there are certain towns that are pretty quiet.

And then all of a sudden, this huge influx of all the people who are from there pour into there.

The idea was based on a sort of, the need for an economic injection, and by all accounts, it's worked. Wow.

so if it started around 1999, I guess people are used to this system, Fan, but I understand there's been a bit of grumbling recently.

So can you tell us about that? Yeah, I think with the development of social media, we can see people like posting about their daily life or their thoughts more often.

And I think a big complaint from a lot of young people these days is the lack of leave days.

Although like now, you see, for Spring Festival or like National Day, you get seven day or nine days period of time off.

But actually, Chinese people don't really get that much time off because they don't have that many annual leave days.

By the Chinese law, a person who starts, who just started working, you have five days of annual leave.

That is what guaranteed. Each year? Yeah.

Every year. Five days. And it only increases, it only increases when you reach, like ten years or 20 years of your work time. So that is like, comparing to a lot of countries, that is very few and definitely not enough.

Stephen, why does China only give, what, five days annual leave?

That's so little.

I think in all of this discussion and in terms of people's happiness or otherwise about it, we need to separate the idea of whether people are happy with the number of annual leave days they get or and the make up days. Because it's two different concepts.

I think most people would say they're not happy with the number of annual leave days they get, but they'd still, if they're not going to be increased, many people would prefer to still have the make up days because they want to have a big break. Now, as for the number of leave days, one of the problems with not having enough annual leave is that everybody in the country is on holidays at the same time in China, and it means that the trains are packed.

It's hard to get tickets, everything's expensive.

So there have been some government figures, some business people, some academics saying, isn't it a bit smarter to somehow free up people's potential to choose when they go away?

I have to say, I'm one of those people who refuse to travel over the Christmas holiday period, so I would I would definitely vote for that. On your earlier point, so you were saying that while people are not happy with the number of annual leave days that they get, they are quite okay with this concept of make up days.

Having to work the weekend before and after, because I would I would not be happy with that.

I would, eh. I mean, it just depends who you are.

I'd prefer it. It just it depends who you talk to.

I mean, some people are like, look, I've already worked five days.

I'd rather have my weekend, but just think about it.

If you just say a public holiday falls on a Tuesday, you're going to work through.

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You're going to have Saturday and Sunday off. What?

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Go to work on Monday, then have Tuesday off, then back to work.

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I mean, you know, and if someone said to you instead you work on Saturday, we'll give you three days off in a row.

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Long weekend. Ba-boom. I'd prefer it.

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I also think another source of people's discontent with this is, on the surface, it seems like you get a lot of days off.

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But A, you cannot choose these days, right?

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Flexibly. And B, a lot of people say actually when they're off, they're actually also working.

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So in the end, how much time off do you really get?

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So when you say they're off, they're still working.

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You mean still reply to emails? Yes.

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And like a lot of people say, they still are obligated to respond to whatever their bosses require, require them to do and like.

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This is a global problem, isn't it? It is. But I feel like the work culture in China is getting quite toxic to a point that people, like often constantly complain about it.

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And whenever you see discussions about these, like holidays on Chinese social media, it is one of the very common talking point.

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People are like, oh yes, seems like you're giving me time off, but I'm really not off. But also, I think another, another very distinctive thing about Chinese work culture is the hierarchy in these companies and in these, like, workplaces.

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Young people or junior people don't really have the right to say no.

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Often we see a lot of people say on social media again, is that, oh, even if I do want to put in a request for annual leave, I need to read the room and need to, like, see if my boss will let me do it.

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And sometimes they do get rejected and they don't, they can't say say no to that. It's quite I think it's quite similar in Japan where people don't actually get to use up all the annual leave days that you're actually entitled to.

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And I remember when I was working in Tokyo, you just kind of look around and go, oh, that senior person is still there, I can't leave.

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Even though my time, my shift is over.

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So yeah, I think there's a bit of a similarity there.

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The reason young people do this is they've got no choice.

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Youth unemployment is through the roof here.

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Graduates come out. They're looking for jobs.

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What are they going to do? They've got. And they turn up.

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They want to get into one of these buzzy new companies.

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And it's kind of portrayed as a choice thing by employers.

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Oh, we're giving you this choice to do. Come on. It's not a choice.

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They tell if you want to work here, there the hours we're doing.

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And people do it because they've got no choice.

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I mean, someone was telling me this story of, you know, Chinese New Year, it's common to go to the Lama Temple in Beijing and light incense and pray for, you know, good fortune next year and your family, etc., etc..

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So this one guy from another province, he's only got his one day off after working 11 to 11 every day he's got on the train.

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Comes into Beijing, races down to Lama Temple.

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Pray pray pray, pray. Back on the train.

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Back home. Back to work the next day. I mean, it's nuts, but I think the main reason all young people, well, they're upset about it.

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It's forced on them. By these, I mean you can you've seen them all these, these tech bosses trying to sell this as some great option for them.

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This, you know, to do something for the country, do something for your company.

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I mean, how do you find your future partner?

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How do you have kids? How do you visit your parents?

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I mean, it's not a life to work like that. It just isn't.

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I think Stephen touched on a very important reason, which is the slow economy, like the economy, the prospect.

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Like, I think when these big tech companies started doing this it was, you were you were promised that, oh, as long as you work hard enough, you can get enough in return.

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But that is no longer More pay, maybe. the contract anymore.

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Like now, people who are joining this industry and it's not only limited to tech companies anymore.

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This kind of, it's kind of become the China success story.

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And China didn't invent this at their work.

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The Koreans have been doing it for years.

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I mean, I remember ten years ago, I knew lots of Koreans here, people I'd studied with, all these Korean companies, even the ones in China, making people work on Saturdays.

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And really, you think about it in other parts of the world.

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The push is on to go the other way. Four day week. Not a six day week.

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Come on. What are we going back to Dickensian London or something with people having to work on Saturdays?

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Give me a break. I mean, I was saying to a colleague that, you know, could this be the the reason behind Asia's economic success?

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You know, obviously the economies have been slowing down lately, but up until now, the decades of growth is it because of this work culture?

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And then my colleague was like, yeah, but also it's the reason behind the low birth rate because people just don't have, you know, people are just too busy as well.

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But I wonder, though, in an era where the US and China are competing over those top talent, especially in the tech industry, how would you retain those talent?

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Wouldn't you offer, at least to those top talent, more days off, more flexibility?

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Is that something that could actually change in the future?

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I want both of your opinions, but maybe Stephen first.

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I think the problem is that those who are most shafted in all this are young people. Like they're coming out of university.

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Like I was saying, they're desperate. They want to get work and they'll just put up with the conditions because they have to.

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Now, if youth unemployment wasn't as lousy as it is at the moment, employers wouldn't have the leverage to treat people as badly.

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You know, they'd have to give them better conditions.

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This happened a few years ago with migrant workers, as they're called, you know, the itinerant laborers who work in factories, who, you know, famously from the 80s here, moving from towns into Guangzhou and Shenzhen and what have you to work on production lines.

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But then at a certain point, the, you know, unemployment, it came right down and it gave them choices.

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They didn't have to travel as far to get work.

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They didn't have to accept such lousy conditions.

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And so factories were having to start giving people better conditions.

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And the same thing applies to all these companies in the city.

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Now, if economic conditions were different, if unemployment was less, they'd have to treat people better.

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But the reason they're not doing it at the moment is that they don't have to.

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Yeah, exactly. I think, I mean, even for foreign companies in China, they traditionally have better perks in terms of like leave days and like these compensation for their employees.

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But even now, like I've heard, people who work in these companies telling me that even for them, the work has been become so much like they they are also expected to work on holidays and they can't really take time off.

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So I think the big economy, the big picture of the economy, slow economy is the main reason for this.

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And speaking of any chances of change, I think, yes, because you see people like constantly talking about this and complaining about this.

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And actually the Chinese government did increase the public holidays from 11 to 13 two years ago.

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So you can see that they are aware of this issue, but people are, does 13 make people happy enough?

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I don't think so. And as long as people keep complaining, I think there's always room for improvement.

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I mean, I think in a way they've been successfully lobbied by the business sector that they oh, we can't possibly give people more days off because of all that lacking productivity.

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But the trade off in terms of the economy is also huge, because if you give people more time off, they travel to more places, they buy more stuff, you know, sell more train tickets, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, which gives smaller places a shot in the arm.

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So it definitely has its economic advantages.

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And I suppose, I mean, one could be right if people complain about it enough on social media and keep going.

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Maybe that's the way just to, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the oil, etc..

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You two might become stars of the Chinese workers, right?

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Oh. Right. I feel so lucky after speaking about this holiday system in China.

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Thank you both Stephen in Beijing and Fan in the studio.

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No worries. Good to inspire you anytime.

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Thanks for having me again and happy holidays to those who are celebrating.

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You've been watching Asia Specific from the BBC World Service with me, Mariko Oi in Singapore.

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If you have any questions or thoughts on what we've covered in this episode or any other stories from the region, please leave us a comment below.

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You can also get in touch with us on email [email protected].

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And you know the drill.

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Click like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. See you next time.

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Pratique du Shadowing: Inside China’s intense work culture and holiday system - Asia Specific podcast, BBC World Service - Apprendre l'anglais à l'oral avec YouTube

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