Prática de Shadowing: Fortescue CEO: A Mining Giant on a Mission to Change the World | Podcast | In Good Company - Aprenda a falar inglês com vídeo

Hi everybody, I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Søren Wealth Fund, and today I'm in particularly good company because I'm here with Andrew Forrest, who is visiting us in Oslo.

And Andrew, he is the chairman and CEO of Fortisku, one of the incredible companies in Australia, a mining company.

You started it in 2003, against all odds.

It's done extremely well, taking on, you know, the incumbents.

And now you are making an even bigger bet, running this as a zero fossil fuel company by 2030 with no offsets

and then you've given away billions

so warm welcome to oslo you are the type of guy

we like thank you great to be here you know normally i would dive in

and talk about the business but it's just you have got such an incredible background

and can we just start with a beginning you know your

birth yeah okay i look where were you i mean where were you born

and how was your upbringing uh in western australia um immediately uh on a big sheep

and cattle station it's about a bit shy of a million

hectares sounds like a lot of land here in norway

but over there it's it's not

that big it's normal school in the middle of the wilderness yeah

but actually by boarding school uh from i think it's eight

or nine i went to boarding school

but my early years were by school of the air you

literally had a radio schedule for 30 minutes each day um

and kids from like 500 kilometers radius used to jump on

this scared we used to call it school of the air

and that was all cool

and gravy for the other kids to speak on a radio to their teacher four

or five hundred kilometers away but not for a kid with a bad stutter

and i had a very bad stutter so i found how long did

that last challenging i didn't kick it really till i entered the school debating team

so it was either do or die um

when i was about 15 16 i started to kick the stutter were you were you giving a hard time

when he was small yeah you get teased a lot I mean, that's how it was in those days.

Yeah, exactly.

So this is all the revenge of the nerd Exactly good now Before Fortiscue you started something called anaconda nickel,

which didn't go so well Well see I'd protest that enormously, but the lessons from it

Were spectacular I but look let's just talk about anaconda

so it started from nothing like like fortescue we did a 1 .4 billion dollar financing

which that back then a billion dollars had a lot of respect it's a long time ago um

and it was bringing in a new technology

which has stood the test of time like it got taken over by glencore it's now their purist nickel

and cobalt metal for for batteries cathodes etc supply um so but But I was like a kid,

so I didn't kick off with a big percentage.

You immediately got pushed around by big shareholders.

And of course, being a naive kid, I thought, well, if I enter into contracts, then surely the company will be protected.

Now I've learned a big lesson from that.

Never rely on contracts, rely on people because it was an innovative technology,

innovative flow sheet, huge, like straight up to 45 ,000 tonnes of nickel, 3 ,500 tonnes of cobalt,

two kilometres long, one kilometre wide, utilising about a third of Perth's water supply, but it had to discover all its own water out in the desert.

I mean, it had everything going against it, but it had this big type of nickel deposit

which no one could commercialize except for this particular technology

which was breaking tech

so i built this huge plant on the back of a

big engineering company who said we'll guarantee it let's call lump sum fixed price anyway they did guarantee it

but they took some shortcuts

so on a lump sum contract you pay them the amount of money you agree

and if they can build it for less that's more money in their pocket

and they took too many opportunities like

that it was a company called floor corporation

and the process uh failed from the outset

and we had to rebuild it and we had to rebuild things

which really shouldn't have failed like an acid plant a power

station a pressure let down system these are fairly basic technologies they weren't part of the innovative system

but the but you left that company then well i did

because uh before my 40th birthday reached an agreement glenn call

were coming in they're saying oh we're going to blame you for everything i said you can't do

that people want us in this podcast to talk a bit more about things

that went wrong you know because everything goes so well yeah

so what what uh just a few i'm happy to talk

about it yeah yeah we don't spend a lot of time

because we always spend away the huge successes you've had subsequently

but just what did you learn from it what did it

do to you look i touched on it contracts behind and way behind people

now if i'd relied on people i could do at fortescue we've run into

equally big problems that force you but

if you have a passionate group of people committed to the same set of values

so you're running with the same culture galloping with the same culture then you run into these huge problems

and you don't dive to lawyers which people do right

but what do you think about the world

and the world now is moving more towards lawyers and litigations

and contracts and all that all that stuff well we won't i mean

and i think that's probably why we've been able to move with such speed

and be so successful

because i believe in people i believe in taking a a

group of people around you could be from every part of

the world black white print all any sex you like who cares

but you abide by 10 values and that

and we will come back to your 10 values

which i like a lot now then you started fortescue in

2003 yes tell me about it fortescue in 2003 kicked off

with a well it was like anaconda a concept stock i announced that i was going to take on

the iron ore industry but not adversarially but through building a railway

and port system

which they could all share now bhp rio tinto even vale they all own their own port

and rail systems and And they don't share them with anyone.

And of course they were underutilized, fully underutilized, but instead of being infrastructure we all share, they were used as a barrier to entry.

Now, I didn't really get that.

So I said, I'll build a port and rail system and we can all share it and we can all do well.

And I'll just be an infrastructure provider.

And they really said, well, how does get stuff done?

So this is how they tried to keep you out.

Yeah.

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Did you have any money when you started up Fortisque?

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I think I had a mortgage, that's about it.

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How do you go from having nothing to building up one of the most successful companies in Australia?

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Look, I think grit and determination.

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I mean, you have your eye focused on a goal.

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So we had our eye totally focused on building a port and rath system.

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And when the incumbent players said, well, we're never going to use it.

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So, okay, we'll then extend that target.

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We'll lift, instead of going backwards, which will increase the danger, increase the level of difficulty, and also become an iron ore producer.

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We thought through being port and rail to transport other peoples.

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When they said, get nicked,

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I said, okay, well, we'll go find our own ore bodies and explore them and try and get into the business ourselves,

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which was several times harder than just providing infrastructure.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But that's what we went for rio tinto had controlled the

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iron ore industry in australia for 60 years 60 years

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and okay and then you just decided to take them on i decided to take them on

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and everyone nicolai thought it was impossible yeah what was the most difficult part of it oh there were

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so many times where your heart felt absolutely broken nicolai um

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uh what was the what's the hardest um oh i think uh the financing was immensely difficult.

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The terms of the financing kept changing.

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We had a cyclone, which is like a big hurricane, come through.

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It killed three people, including two people on our site.

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I flew straight back.

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I was in an investment conference in America.

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I flew straight back and went with my father

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and stood beside the beds of those people who had survived

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but were injured and I remember holding this big burly bloke's hand,

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tattoos all over him and I just started to cry

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and he did too and he's a huge guy all bandaged up and he said how do you feel young fellow,

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I was called my nickname Twiggy.

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Because you were quite thin.

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Yeah

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and I said well I don't care how feel how do

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you feel he said i think i'm going to get through will you get through this

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and i said i don't know i feel like giving up

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um no one was meant to die no you're not meant to be injured

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and he said if you give up

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and he was holding my hand big guy still injured big guy he said

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if you give up none of this was worth it you must not give up

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and um and it really shook me

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and i said well I'm not going to

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and really the rest is history but I needed

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that message to come at me hard from someone in a much worse position than me.

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When did you understand that it was going to that it was going to be something big Fortescue?

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Oh look we planned a crash

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or crash through scenario I mean we went for you know what I'd say to anyone who's trying to start something off,

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work out what your goal is and then work out what your biggest barrier is.

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So our biggest barrier then, our biggest size limitation challenge was, believe it or not, not a railway line, not a port, but a shiploader.

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A shiploader at that stage only could do 25 million tonnes a year.

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There's a new technology which arguably could do 40 million tonnes a year now

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if we could if we get hold of that technology for shiploaded

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which could be 40 million tons then

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that justified the huge cost of the port behind it

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and the railway behind it and the mines behind it

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but it had to be big

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and you you that's what sized it we'll come back to this

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but you one of your ideas is crazy brave plan a was

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that one of those hmm it was always always always have crazy brave plan as they most often fail

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but you don't have a crazy brave plan a there is

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no crazy brave plan a unless nicolai you have a bulletproof

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plan b you don't go anywhere for your plan a unless your plan b is bulletproof

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so we have across fortescue even now you don't need permission to go

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and have a crack at something which no one else has done you just go

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and do it but when it fails

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because it most likely will then the company's not at risk you're not at risk

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and everything goes keeps going because you've your bulletproof plan b well

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if you've got big ambitions you achieve great things even

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if you failed even if you fail because you learn

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so much exactly failure well the other the competitors they um went into other minerals like copper

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and so on and you stayed in iron ore and why why

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that focus ah because focus is the key to success just you know I had this culture which evolved around leadership.

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Leadership is the sum of leadership and membership, and the membership is critical.

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Everyone's got to believe in the same goal, in the same dream, and not be distracted.

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Now, we had plenty of people saying, well, we've got a great idea for nickel or zinc or copper.

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I said, look, if you want to pursue that, pursue that with another company.

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But for us, we're going to stay just on this goal the biggest critical

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mineral the most important mineral in the world is iron ore stay fixed on

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that and we did and it's focus focus focus saved us many times you have also focused in on china

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yeah what do you think about that risk that was

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that was hard work in the big in the beginning

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because you know we had to persuade huge companies across the world

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but particularly in china to take this little upstart seriously

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and they said holophone you've got bhp

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and rio tinto back then they were the biggest companies in the world right i mean they were huge uh

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and iron ore was the most profitable element to be in seaborne iron ore now you've got big tech

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and everything else now

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but back then massive profit margins in seaborne iron ore dominated by vale bhp

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and rio tinto and they all said no way

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if you deal with him you're not going to get any iron ore from us

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so how did you solve

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that problem they couldn't deal with everyone there were enough small mills

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and rebels who were who could look at bhp rare turn value

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and say well actually i don't like that i don't like

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that fact you you're you're using us to push him around

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so some big steel mills broke rank

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but many smaller mills said well they don't look after us anyway we'll deal with you

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and it was enough to get us going what's the key

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to success in china well it's a contact sport right

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so it's rough and tumble and uh

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and look i think the the chinese very pragmatic remember

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that they're they're chasing this dream that they want to leave a better world

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and a better living standard for their kids that's the primary motivator it doesn't sound

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that different from ours but for them it's really serious

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when I started Fortescue

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and I went around all the steel mills we'd hold these occasional large dinners

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which you know the dinner bill was more than the market was worth sometimes

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but we'd hold these large dinners and everyone would introduce themselves

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and I'd say well what did your dad do what did your mum do

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and in almost every case their mum and dad were farmers.

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Like farmers not to make money, farmers just to survive.

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So that cultural revolution nearly undid China

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and from there to the new leadership to the mixed free

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enterprise economy you had this burning ambition sparked by the suffering they've had to never go back to that suffering,

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to never go back to that poverty and that ambition still runs deep in Chinese psychology.

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Now the coming generation will of course not be anywhere near as determined because their parents can make ends meet, they can feed the kids,

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they can pay off the mortgage but back then it's only one generation.

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they couldn't are you worried that that hunger for success will disappear in your own family

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you know it's a great question it's a typical mate um

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so what we did with our kids is sit them down

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when they're young

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and say uh hey kids we we're talking telephone numbers of

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capital now it's not really cash you can go down to the shop

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and buy ice creams with it's held in a company now

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do you want to inherit that and be obscenely rich or would you like to actually

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make your own way and they literally said well what's best dad what's best mom said

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so much better that you know

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that you're probably not going to starve things go wrong

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but you make your own way and we take all

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that capital and we give it to philanthropy to people who need it

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so much more than you

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and they said well we don't have anything we might need

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it i said no no kids you've got what most people never get that's a great education

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and a loving home so that that's where that capital should go

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and they said sounds great by us yeah we agree

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and well you know you and i we are aligned there

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and we'll be back to philanthropy a bit but something happened in 2016

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you had a personal accident wolf you've done your research um it actually what happened it

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was late 2015 uh it was a kind of life -changing

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event i was hiking through canyons up in the one of the most remotest regions of the world.

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It was absolutely wild.

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We took a weapon with us because there are crocodiles

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which were around all the time but we knew

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if we climbed higher and higher and higher then the crocodiles would only stay in the saltwater not in the freshwater.

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So we climbed a long way as a result to make sure

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that when we stopped and had and met a helicopter with the family

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that would be right out of danger part of this climb

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involved going around a ledge over a large pool of water

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and the ledge gave way and i slipped into the water um

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and my leg got caught on a tree root like

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which came out of the bank of the river into a loop

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and back into the bank of the river and it snapped my leg like like it's snap a matchstick

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but the wrong way like it did that it went the opposite way to how knees normally bend

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and i think i might have passed out but i remember when i first realized where i was

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and i was looking up at the surface of the water

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and it had gone still it had gone still like a mirror

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so I realised that A I was on my own

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and B I was drowning and C I'd been there for a little while because there was no ripples in the water.

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I'd fallen and it was flat

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and I then had to get back to the bank with my leg facing away from the bank

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but I had to bring my body to face towards the bank to climb out and so I had to, this is not a pretty story,

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but I had to break my leg even further to twist

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it to get back to the bank to pull my head above water

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and anyway I got flown out it was a wonderful helicopter pilot

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and and I had surgery and I came out of

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that in a wheelchair how did it change your thinking about

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life look I mean what it did is just it the

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kids really had the biggest impact the kids said you know

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dad you're in a wheelchair they say you'll be able to walk again one day

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if you're lucky um maybe maybe not um uh there's still discussion with the leg be amputated

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so so it was unhappy time and um and uh

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and the kid said look on the bright side you've always taught us

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that um you've wanted to study the oceans all your life i mean the whole time

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when you when you get more than two

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or three days holiday with us kids you start talking about

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the damn oceans all the time go study the oceans you

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in a wheelchair what could go wrong go do it oh my god okay

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and i applied for a masters i got rejected i said

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why did i get rejected they said well masters are for people who want to learn how to do research

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you've been doing research for 30 years in fact every one of your business enterprises involve new

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and breaking technology that's research you can do a phd we're

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not going to take up a master's position on you so i said what a phd on nothing they said yeah

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Oh, okay.

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And so I applied for four -year PhD and studied marine ecology.

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How old were you then?

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That was in 2016 I applied.

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So you work it out, mate.

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So you're 64 now, you're 54?

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Yeah, 54.

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Yeah.

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Why did you want to study the ocean?

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Because it's the most important part of the planet by a mile.

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It's you know in this very thin veneer of atmosphere we have above terrestrial earth above land

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That's one or two percent of the world's livable space the other 98 plus percent is all ocean, you know from top to bottom.

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It's full of life It doesn't matter if it's in the bottom of the Mariana Trench or on The coast at Norway.

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It's full of life And most people don't care so much about the ocean, but why do you care so much about the ocean?

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Because of that because you know, I grew up I Actually grew up in the middle of Australia, right?

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So I mentioned that huge sheep and cattle.

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I'd call it a ranch Or farm over here, but it was massive and and whenever I could get to the ocean,

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which was long way away I used to just love it I'd just marvel at it

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and get in it and and try and put goggles on and see what else was underneath it So yeah, I've really loved it.

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So having started it.

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How did you change your business?

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ah that's a big question

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so what the study in in relative short okay i'll be

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quick the study marine ecology taught me the four major threats are plastic pollution overfishing

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and climate change and i was able to do papers in my thesis on the first two

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but climate change was such a huge area I was allowed to study it but

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if I tried to publish on it then they said it's

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going to delay your PHP by up to two years so

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but the most impactful part of that PhD was learning the massive impact

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which global warming is making on the oceans on the marine environments

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and I thought I've got to do everything I can personally to stop

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that now I had this very successful company called Fortescue by

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that stage it was already Australia's most successful company by a

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margin in shareholder returns in stock exchange history i thought i've

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got to do more for this company than just a bit

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of a bit of a tacky question in here how much

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money did you have then uh tacky question yeah i i

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fed a third of the company say 20 billion um

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that was 60 billion dollar company you're trying to you've got 20 billion you do a phd in marine ecology

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and decide to focus in on the climate.

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Yes.

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And to use this very successful heavy industry, heavy mining company, everyone said, well, your company will be the last to change.

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You're in the hard to abate sector.

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And I thought, what, mining and heavy industry?

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Yeah, they're the two hardest.

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I said, right.

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So then you decided for zero.

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This company is going to be the one that changes.

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And so, yes, we started it for years and years and years.

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the the first concept we had of trying to replace oil was back in 2013

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but we're kind of noodling with it andre you know just just not taking it super seriously

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and then i did the phd

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and then we really started to look hard for solutions electrification hydrogen all of that and

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and by 2022 we believed we had enough answers to commit

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the company to going without any fossil fuel by 2030

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and we're on track and probably ahead of track yeah no super impressive

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and now you're also into electrification yeah in grid and these kind of things yeah very very seriously look uh

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uh an oil minister of saudi arabia a few back are no longer with us

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but he declared never let the oil price get over 80 a barrel otherwise we will be replaced um

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and i think that guy was about right

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because the the total reconstruction of the energy market from the Straits of the Mose

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and whatever else may may be thrown at it is upon us

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and we're seeing massive increase in orders in interest from all over the world for Fortescue's electrification like 10, 20, 30x.

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How will you take this going forward?

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What's the plan?

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I think

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that no other miner have no other mining company has followed

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your no your direction here no no we have I mean

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look no no other miner followed me into iron ore no

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other miner said you can break the cartel between BHP

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and Rio and Vale they're the biggest mining companies in the world they'll crush you like an ant

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so I so I said no other mining companies following us now either but when we save

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a billion dollars a year

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because we eliminate a billion litres of diesel diesel equivalent from our supply chains then they will all follow

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but they will watch until that happens

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and that that is happening we're already starting to save operating cost

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and that's a massive competitive advantage we consider we're the most efficient mining company on earth

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because we have the last cost already per tonne but

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when we go fully green our costs will go completely out of reach of any competition until they turn green.

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And that's my message to the world.

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If you don't believe in climate change, well, you're an idiot.

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But if you don't, fine.

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But believe in a better life, believe in a lower cost of living, believe in a lower cost of energy, that's green.

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Some pretty high -profile people disagree with you on a few things.

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Yeah, apparently.

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What are some of the public – I love this kind of stuff, you know, but what are some of the public fights you've been in?

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Ah, look, well, we're clearly going green in the first place.

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Everyone thought, well, he's an idiot.

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Why would you do that?

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He's super successful on fossil fuel.

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I've challenged that.

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Plus, I've started to challenge around the world, but, you know, everything should begin at home, right?

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Yeah, but I mean, the American president has named you.

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Yeah.

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Elon Musk has named you.

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Yeah, well, that's okay.

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But I still feel the world's making a huge mistake subsidising fossil fuel.

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If it's not going to subsidise renewable energy, I'd say take the subsidies off all energy and let us all compete.

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And you'll find renewable energy will compete.

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And that is removing the biggest threat which organic life, including, by the way, humanity, has in front of it.

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And climate change is no joke.

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I mean, you don't feel it in Norway, but in the tropics and subtropics, you get humidity and humidity kills.

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Humidity rises seven to ten times quicker than heat.

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Humidity kills.

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You call the fossil fuel CEOs for oligarchs, fruitcakes, invaders.

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No. I said if you want to protect yourself from oligarchs,

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fruitcakes and invaders like someone invading a perfectly beautiful country like Ukraine or other examples,

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which really smashes your overall cost.

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So you don't know what it's going to cost to run your business

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or your household from year to year or even day to day.

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That means you don't have sovereignty.

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You don't have freedom.

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And until you make your own energy, you can't really claim you're a free sovereign country.

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What do you think about diesel fuel tax credits?

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Well, that's part of the subsidies.

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I mean, that locks in everyone to just consume as much diesel as possible.

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And that is crazy, right?

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Diesel is in short supply.

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You've got these huge companies like mine with massive balance sheets who are competing against mums and dads at the bowser,

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at the distribution pump for their cars.

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And by the way, they pay us to compete with them.

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So not only are we bigger and uglier and with bigger cash at bank, but they pay us to out -compete them

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and as I said that's crazy why should we like a

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dozen of this big mining companies swallow 2 .5 billion dollars per year paid for by mums

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and dads to compete against mums and dads for diesel I mean it's crazy

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and it's and it's stopping stopping all these other mining companies from going green they all watch Fortescue

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and they say to me behind closed doors why should we

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change the government doesn't want us to change The government's giving us a huge credit and cash, baby, for not changing.

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I'm saying, well, that's got to stop, right?

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That's just crazy.

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You should be the people who can afford to innovate, who can afford to take risks like I'm doing.

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You should be the perfect people to lead this country, yet you're saying the government's stopping you.

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But that's really an excuse.

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So let's remove the excuse.

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Let's move on to leadership and culture.

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You've written a book about your 10 values.

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and in good Australian style, they involve some crocodiles and these kind of things.

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And here we have it.

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It's being brought to the table.

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Yeah, I just, it's, I love it.

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I, I, I, I, I can't wait to read it.

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It's, you know, like, Mao Tse Tung's, you know.

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Yes, thank you, thank you.

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What are the, what are the most, what are the most important values in your, in your company?

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Oh, look, it's really just saying, who's your favourite child in your family.

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I mean, you really can't single one out.

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I think the one which protects us most, I think you're a perfect example, is humility.

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knowing you know greater than anyone else you've got gifts which are different to other people

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but you might get great bricklayers or great singers

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or whatever i mean they're incredibly gifted people but they're not worse

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or better than you you know so it's it gives you an understanding

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that um of that urgency of great teamwork are the values your personal values as well

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this is how you run your life they are as you ask it's funny that isn't it how

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personal values yeah define top values yeah they are yeah I haven't been asked that question

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but you put it on the table they actually are yeah

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now look I'm imperfect right I see they're very hard to

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keep to all ten all the time okay you try on courage

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and determination yes hit the crocodile closest to your kind of

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canoe closest to you can I it means it means don't get distracted

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when you when you're on a mission make sure

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that you stay absolutely focused and

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when you're challenged don't don't get distracted by big challenges over the horizon fix fix the problem

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which is closest to you

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so you can stay on course be the most positive person

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in every group why first of all why are you

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so positive where does it come from well i don't think

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you can be a negative leader i don't think i've never

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heard of a very pessimistic downtrodden uh unoptimistic leader i think positivism

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and belief in the truth of what you're doing is really important

451

but it's it's not just having the deductive power to know

452

what is true what is false it's also once you decide

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what is true what is good what is what is going

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to create value for humanity then stay absolutely focused on it say what you mean mean what you say yes

455

that that's pretty clear yeah it's pretty clear being the deep

456

end of the pool okay that's learning to swim yeah that

457

that means as soon as you're comfortable with where you are step out further become uncomfortable again try

458

and get used to a state of being uncomfortable try

459

and get used to failure being around the corner and

460

when it hits you it's annoying it's sad sometimes

461

but be grateful for it because you'll learn at least 10 times more from

462

that failure than you ever will from success yeah we are

463

one family it's coming what that's the that's critical sure but what do you do with people who don't

464

perform we find look if we find people

465

if they stick to the ten values and they live

466

and breathe them there's no doubt they're going to perform it's

467

more the other question Nikolai it's what do you do with people who are really really good performers

468

but they're not great people to be around you know what

469

do you do with them it's really tempting to keep them

470

because they really perform their areas

471

but they make sure no one else does you've got to

472

let those people go they're going to be better doing something else

473

but not in your business i had expected you to have

474

some crocodile little d quotes like that's not a knife that's the knife exactly exactly

475

ai how is

476

that going to change the company well ai already is changing

477

the company i mean we we have an operating cost of several billion a year

478

so you can only make that much difference by

479

changing it but i think we'll be able to take operating costs down by hundreds

480

and hundreds of millions of dollars a year

481

and our efficiency through the roof and it's it's already had massive impact

482

and i just want to tell you two one is it

483

taught us how to automate our truck fleet better our trucks

484

are huge trucks right the hubcap would be above this ceiling from where we're sitting

485

so the so obviously the tires are twice the ceiling

486

and they go around the world in terms of mileage

487

or kilometerage twice a week do you enjoy driving them well they drive themselves

488

they're fully automated fully automated

489

and the other is operating a green grid you know we

490

have this 600 kilometer long nearly 500 kilometer wide grid measured in gigawatts measured in gigawatts of storage

491

and it's massive and that grid has to be run at lightning speed

492

because with renewable energy everything changes in an instant if

493

if the wind changes or

494

if there's a cloud bank goes over a solar field everything changes in an instant

495

or somebody drives under a power line with a crane or there's a bushfire that grid is attacked ai

496

heals that grid through a distributed battery system and artificial intelligence

497

and it heals that grid so fast that

498

if you were watching a light

499

when the grid was attacked you wouldn't see it flicker it would just be seamless

500

and it's it's freakish for electrical engineers because

501

all engineering electricity systems in countries

502

and cities rely on a thing called rotary inertia like these big spinning wheels

503

or these big spinning turbines and that's called inertia it's it's kinetic rotary energy

504

so when there is a drop in the power

505

or collapse in the power that huge wheel

506

or those huge turbines keep on keep on giving you

507

that rotary energy to keep the grid going you don't need

508

that anymore that's that's what gets attacked in ukraine by russia

509

those huge generators those huge turbines now you can have a

510

distributed system with nothing bigger than a than a shipping container can't attack

511

that and the rest is artificial intelligence can't attack that either

512

so it is going to transform the world as we know

513

we call them smart grids very interesting circling back to foundation

514

and philanthropy you set up your foundation 25 years ago what

515

are the what are the priorities what do you feel strongly about I think for the world

516

the natural world it's the oceans now we've got to protect the Brazilian the Latin American

517

and the African rainforest that's an absolute must we have to protect species etc etc

518

so where we are pouring capital into that

519

but the part of the ocean

520

which part of the world no one sees is the ocean so in In terms of natural world, we tend to focus in hard, like my PhD did, is on oceans.

521

In terms of the human world, what disturbs me most is the risk of AI.

522

Untrammeled AI controlling us instead of us controlling it, particularly between very vast military forces like China and America.

523

So we focus hard in working with both China and America and with tech companies to make sure that AI is safe.

524

Now, we do our best here, but AI companies have to lean in themselves.

525

And then on the more humanitarian side is modern slavery.

526

Slavery will be a new thing to all your listeners.

527

They'll think, oh, that went out with the Middle Ages.

528

No, it hasn't.

529

You've got a greater number of slaves now who suffer the indignity of not being paid, of not having their own passport, of not being able to leave their jobs.

530

Forced labour of an extreme extent.

531

How do you attack that problem?

532

Well, first, we've brought it to light.

533

We measure slavery in every part of the world through a document called the Global Slavery Index.

534

And secondly, we advocate for changes of laws and recognition

535

that all countries.. you'll have slavery here in norway you know

536

we have slavery in australia in australia it appears in our agriculture sector it appears in our seafoods

537

and processing sector um

538

but it's all over the world no country can say they don't have slave

539

because they do and so we measure that we advocate against them just

540

because most people i know aren't psychopathic they're not going to want to have someone operate as a slave

541

but there are industries which still exist where

542

if they can get away with slave labor they do it

543

where do you get your energy from where do you get yours

544

i get mine from talking to people like you you've just been sleeping a couple of nights on trains

545

and that kind of stuff you know you're 64.

546

i am yeah no i look i absolutely love life i

547

i i did actually witness uh someone um dying slowly in

548

my arms as i sang them nursery rhymes as a child from a burn from a bushfire

549

and and I decided at that point in time I would cherish every single day

550

and I kind of have

551

and yeah I like you I love to get up in

552

the morning I don't like it after after taking the night train to Kiev

553

which rattles like a washing machine without water

554

and you're the sock in it but um

555

and then rattles all the way back

556

and then you sleep a night in in the middle in a hotel

557

and your brain is just going nuts so you can't sleep then either.

558

So I think get lots of sleep like I haven't,

559

drink plenty of water, eat as healthily as you can, limit alcohol.

560

I mean I don't care.

561

me or anyone else has drink but

562

but don't make a huge habit of it and

563

and you'll have abundant energy oh

564

and most important thing keep an optimistic view of life that's

565

the key how do you how do you unwind how do

566

you what unwind how do you relax ah unwind what's

567

that again um I unwind by dropping my phone on the

568

floor um i look i love to get out into the

569

wilderness anywhere i love to get out of the wilderness in

570

norway i love to get out of the waters in in

571

the pulbra in the kimberleys in western australia i love to get on the back of a horse

572

and ride for hours and hours and hours have you got horses yeah yeah

573

and i'm a good writer i can stay aboard

574

but no look look whenever I go back home that

575

that family farm station is still in the family whenever I

576

go back home I get dropped with on the horse truck miles

577

and miles away from the homestead and I ride back

578

and it's the most it's you and the horse and it's just divine and the wilderness.

579

Do you barbecue?

580

Yeah sure of course.

581

Of course you do.

582

Now

583

when you look at everything you've done what are you what

584

are you the most proud of oh coming on this podcast

585

mate of course being a guest of yours one of the most important people in the whole investment ecosystem

586

and here you interviewing me why have you got interest in

587

me i mean what are you what are you the most proud of oh okay back to the story um okay

588

oh nicolai i think i think probably employing people making difference in people's lives how many people have you employed?

589

Look if you include construction probably over a hundred thousand people.

590

We keep now about 25 -30 ,000 people within the private equity, the foundation and Fortescue.

591

But I suppose I'm proud of

592

not wasting a day you know to live what this old Aboriginal guy told me in this old Australian stockman,

593

non -Aboriginal, told me, live your life usefully.

594

Now enjoy it too, young fella.

595

I remember the words.

596

Be useful, but enjoy it.

597

Now you don't always enjoy achievement, because it's tough, because you fail.

598

But you kind of always enjoy looking back on it.

599

And at the time, you can also enjoy it.

600

So I try and live through those very simple rules.

601

And if you were translate

602

that into advice for young people yeah i'd say i'd say simply

603

that i mean it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor

604

if you want to live a happy life that's really really

605

what you should think of um you know how to live your most fulfilling life

606

and i'd say always think of being useful that's useful to others in particular be useful

607

and enjoy it andrew i would say you have been very useful to very many people

608

and you for sure have enjoyed it.

609

It's been a great pleasure.

610

Thank you sir.

611

It's been great being aboard this podcast.

612

Famous podcast by the way, one of the best in the world so I'm very grateful.

613

Thank you so much.

614

Thank you.

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