تدريب Shadowing: Why are there millions of empty houses in Japan? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service - تعلم التحدث بالإنجليزية مع YouTube

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Hello, I'm Lucy Hockings from the BBC World Service.

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Hello, I'm Lucy Hockings from the BBC World Service.

This is The Global Story.

In Japan, the number of abandoned homes is at an all-time high.

Nine million properties sit empty,

blighting city streets and turning some rural communities into ghost towns.

So what do these crumbling houses say about Japan's existential crisis and its ageing, shrinking population?

And could a new breed of homeowners,

young, foreign and eager for a bargain,

help to solve the problem?

With me today is our Tokyo correspondent, Shaima Halil.

Hi Shaima, how are you?

I'm good, I'm good.

It's so good to speak to you, Lucy.

Shaima, lovely to see you.

Now if I'm out and about in a big city like Tokyo or Osaka or Kyoto or even in the countryside,

Am I going to see some of these abandoned homes?

Yes, and some of them are more obvious than others.

So if you're in the countryside,

for example, there are homes where nature has pretty much taken over.

So that's a very obvious sign of an abandoned home.

I think here in Tokyo,

for example, there are also obvious older ones.

But if you're like me and you're a big avid home programs fan

and you walk around looking at houses and wondering how people live inside them,

some will be more obvious to you and then others are just

so deceptive you walk around and they look perfectly normal

but you find out from a broker or a real estate agent

or those who bought them that they've been abandoned for years

and years and years so some are some are more obvious than others for sure

and the obvious ones are it's obvious because they're decaying

and decrepit

or they have sort of you know foliage growing out of

them how can you tell exactly they're they're in they're in a really bad state.

They're pretty much falling apart.

Yeah, so sometimes you can tell by the state of it that it's a wooden,

very traditional-looking Japanese home

that has seen better days in the middle of a main street where there are many other buildings around it,

and you could tell that it's been abandoned for many years.

Is this generally, though, Shima,

seen as a more rural issue.

Japan is really suffering when it comes to urbanization and there are villages that are literally dying out.

You know, for example, there's this remarkable story of a village called Nagoro.

It's literally just a, you know,

20 something people, a couple dozen people.

And what they've done, they've made human sized dolls to replace people

and just put them around the village in schools and bus stops and different areas.

And while on the face of it,

it's a cute an innovative idea.

It's actually quite unsettling because you can see that it's literally running out of people.

The majority of the abandoned homes are in villages.

However, there are actually more abandoned homes in cities here in Tokyo even,

more than I imagined.

And I've been taken to a couple of them.

Do the Japanese have a word for these abandoned homes, Shaina?

Yes, akiyas.

It's called akiya.

Essentially it means empty home,

but right now it's used interchangeably with abandoned homes as well,

homes that have been empty for many, many years.

How did it get to this point?

Why are there so many?

If you're sitting anywhere in the world right now where there is a housing problem,

where young people are finding it very,

very difficult to get on the property market,

to actually think there's a place in the world where there are 9 million homes that are empty,

ready for someone to occupy them.

It's quite...

I still try to get my head around it,

but essentially it's an ageing population, it's a shrinking population.

More people are dying than there are people being born here.

Combine that with people leaving villages and coming to the city,

so the urbanisation, and you get those villages of people dying out of homes that are not worth much,

that are just left abandoned.

So for these IKEAs, it's not so much a problem of too many houses,

it's a problem of not enough people.

But Japan's not the only country experiencing this, Shia.

What about South Korea?

I mean, there are neighbouring countries with low birth rates as well.

Why are the IKEA's a big issue in Japan?

I think there are a couple of reasons.

One is cultural.

I think the majority of Japanese people tend to want to live in brand new homes.

This is a country that has many,

many earthquakes with different strengths.

But let's just say there are homes that get affected by earthquakes or get destroyed by earthquakes.

Instead of renovating, people would prefer to just build and use.

So that's one thing.

I think economically as well,

there is a depreciation in the value of homes,

unlike the West and unlike anywhere else in the world, actually.

And so you have this picture in Japan where homes are not worth much,

people who live in them and then die,

and they leave them to family members.

And everything about that house then is more costly than it is profitable because it costs money to empty it.

Putting it on the market,

trying to sell it, all the paperwork that comes with that,

it just becomes not worth it for family members.

So it becomes cheaper for people just to leave them abandoned.

And that's why you get that large number.

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And presumably, Shima, if you're leaving your home to the next generation and there isn't anyone to leave it to,

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there's no heirs, what do you do with it?

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This is a country that suffers or that is suffering with a phenomenon of lonely deaths,

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of people who die alone and then they don't have family members.

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So people don't claim their remains, for example.

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So they don't claim their remains.

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They're not going to claim their homes.

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So it's almost like the homes die when the people die.

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It must have been interesting as well,

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just the whole culture of older homes, Shima.

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Living in London, everyone wants to live in a historic property.

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And yet in Japan, it's the exact opposite.

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Yeah, it's a completely different culture.

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It's a completely different ballgame.

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The fact that a value of a home is of how new it is,

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how structurally robust it is,

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and that comes from newer homes.

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And so, yeah, the concept of older homes here is not as valued or is not as romanticized,

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if you will, as it is in the West.

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One thing that is the same all over the world,

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the West and it sounds like Japan too,

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is that young people don't want to go and live in the country.

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That is very, very true.

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And I think that's one thing that you see more acutely here in Japan and in rural areas,

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is that, when you go,

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you can see them shrinking.

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I think the concept on its own of an empty home seems benign,

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but actually, it's not, because if you're a village that's emptying out,

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it's almost like you're going extinct,

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because it becomes a ghost town.

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And it becomes more off-putting the emptier it is.

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it becomes less of a good option for a young family to go live in an area that's emptying out.

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Why do the local councils not just knock these homes down?

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When you knock them down,

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you need permissions from family members and from those who inherit it.

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And I think this is where it gets complicated because the homes themselves are not valuable.

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The land is valuable.

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But who gets the land?

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How do you track people down, for example?

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Because again, if people die and leave a home,

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you need to track those family members down.

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And if they haven't followed up,

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and if they're hard to find because,

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for example, they're not in Japan or they live in Tokyo somewhere and not in the village,

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that becomes a very difficult proposition.

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But also, what do you do with the land?

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Who gets right to the land?

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So as long as they're homes,

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it's almost like it's a contained problem when they become land that becomes a different problem conversation about Japan,

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it doesn't matter how short or long earthquakes come up.

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It's come up a few times already in our conversation, Shaima.

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But given how earthquake prone Japan is,

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empty houses sitting there surely also present some kind of hazard?

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Is that an issue?

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Yes, I've seen that firsthand.

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You know, in the new year,

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when an earthquake happened in the Noto Peninsula,

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when you go there, and you see the smaller villages,

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and you see older houses that have either been completely destroyed

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or they've been affected and they're kind of like leaning on their side,

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waiting to be destroyed or waiting to completely collapse,

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that is actually dangerous for the houses next to them and the houses on the other side of the road.

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And I've seen that in many of the streets where people have trouble getting into their own home,

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not because the home itself has been affected,

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but because these older houses are in danger of collapsing.

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So you're absolutely right.

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These empty homes in a country that is so earthquake prone become a problem for the neighbours and the neighbourhoods they're in.

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Shami, you've already mentioned there is a housing crisis around the world.

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Young people as well find it really difficult,

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I think, here in the UK to get on the housing ladder and to buy a home.

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Are there foreigners sitting here looking at the real estate pages in Japan going,

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here is a massive opportunity for me to go and get an affordable home somewhere beautiful.

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Yeah, I think many foreigners are waking up to the fact that this is an opportunity.

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I've spoken to a couple of people,

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for example, one of them who is now a TikTok phenomenon.

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His name is Anton Warman.

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He is from Sweden, from Stockholm.

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He is a model who is now turned renovator.

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And he went viral because essentially what he did is he bought an IKEA

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and he chronicled his journey into this fixer-upper in the middle of Tokyo.

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Wow.

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Welcome, welcome.

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So I spent about a year into making this house beautiful again.

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I was just going to say it doesn't look abandoned to me.

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No, it's not abandoned.

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It was abandoned for about 10 years.

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Oh, okay.

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And when I got the keys to this house,

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it was things literally everywhere.

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Japan is the scarcity of space and just getting rid of things,

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getting rid of trash, getting rid of debris costs a lot of money and also a lot of time.

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So the houses just gets abandoned that way.

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I have to say this combines two of my guilty pleasures.

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Not only do I love like you,

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Shyma, home renovation shows, I love shows about buying a property abroad,

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somewhere in the sun or somewhere different.

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So it's the combination of these two things.

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But for these people, is it about gaining followers

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or are they really trying to say this is an affordable good option for you?

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I don't know.

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I think it's a combination of both.

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I think it taps into something that just translates and transcends everywhere in the world.

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I think no matter where you are,

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the idea of owning a home,

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the idea of turning it from something that's derelict and old and abandoned to something beautiful and livable,

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you know, it just appeals to so many people.

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Tourism is doing really well in Japan.

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Lots of people are now going not just to Tokyo,

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but to all over the country.

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So surely these IKEA's would be great to be used as guest houses or cafes.

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Yes, and this is what Anton is doing.

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In fact, he liked it so much,

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he started his second IKEA project.

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He showed it to me.

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And it was really interesting to go into his second home

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because you see it from the beginning when they're laying down concrete slabs,

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they're making sure it's earthquake safe.

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And it is a lot of work because you see,

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for example, that there are so many things that were left by the previous owner that he had to let go of,

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deciding what to do, deciding what to throw away, what to keep.

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But essentially, his first property,

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he now rents it out for visitors,

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rents it out short term,

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when his family comes to visit.

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And so it is a lucrative business opportunity for people who are willing to put in the work.

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And as you say, I think tourism has picked up quite a bit.

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This year was phenomenal in the number of tourists that have come to Japan.

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I think in one month,

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there were about 3 million, if not more.

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Just Just the fact that technology and translation apps is a lot more advanced.

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Japan has become much more accessible,

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not just the big touristy areas,

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but you can go into these nooks and crannies of some villages and explore because you can get access to them.

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So, if IKEA's then turned out to be this new phenomenon where more tourists are coming in,

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more people are investing in these empty homes,

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that's actually a win-win situation because all of these villages,

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all of the local governments would then say,

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look, well, this could be a new lease of life for those villages.

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So, Shaima, what are the foreigners doing once they've bought and renovated the IKEA?

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Are they staying put and living there or using them to set up a business?

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Some of the foreigners who are coming,

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they're coming because they want to have a foot in Japan.

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So, for example, they live in America,

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they live in the UK,

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they live anywhere in Europe and this is an affordable option for them to come and have a holiday home,

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you know, in the mountains or by the beach in Japan.

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But, for example, I've met a couple.

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The husband is from the UK originally.

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The wife is Japanese and they've just had a baby boy.

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His name is Sam.

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Her name is Nanami.

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And their baby boy is baby Aiden.

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And Sam's been living in Japan for about seven years,

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I think, or even more.

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And, you know, Nanami's from Tokyo.

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And they've decided that they just wanted more for their money.

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So what was interesting about their case and their journey is

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that they almost paid the same amount of money Anton paid for his home.

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I think they paid $100,000, but their country home is a lot bigger.

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And when I asked Sam why he did it,

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he said, it's just bulks more that I can get for this kind of money in the UK.

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It's a huge house with a land and a big garden overlooking the mountains.

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It's just beautiful.

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And they just wouldn't get that anywhere else in the world,

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especially in Europe and especially in the UK.

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And so this was about a lifestyle choice.

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I definitely think if we had done a new build,

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that would have been a lot easier and straightforward, probably affordable and quicker.

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But it's such a beautiful house.

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And you just kind of think,

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like, it's nice to preserve that and to,

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you know, extend its life.

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Shaima, what do the Japanese think about foreigners coming in and buying up these Ikeas?

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So far, I don't think that we've seen any negative reaction

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because remember the foreigners who come here are not tapping into something

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that the Japanese want or that the Japanese have expressed interest in.

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This is very much still a novel phenomena.

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This is something that foreigners have caught on to because,

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again, of the housing crisis,

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because of the idea that these homes could be renovated because they come from renovation culture.

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Everything that we're talking about,

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though, in the grand scheme of things,

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it probably barely makes a dent, Shima.

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So does the government actually have a plan to deal with the IKEAs?

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Yeah, I mean, so far,

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we're talking about hundreds of people that are interested in these IKEAs,

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and a few hundred that take them on and actually buy these IKEAs and transform them and renovate them.

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With government statistics, by the year 2038,

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if I'm not mistaken, in one in every three homes in Japan is going to be abandoned.

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That is a huge number,

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and I think they're trying to tackle it in different ways.

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There are local municipalities or local governments in these villages that are trying to give away these homes for free,

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just to say, come, find something to do with this house,

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make it a cafe, make it a business,

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come and live in it,

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but just in a way just breathe life into this village.

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But it's a huge problem,

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and again, it comes back to the core of Japan's population crisis.

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The government has been trying many things.

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The government has been trying to tackle the population crisis for a long, long time now.

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And I think you have to deal with the core of it,

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which is that you need more people in this country to occupy these homes,

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but these existing empty homes also need to be either reused,

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renovated, or just have people in them to give them a new lease of life.

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And it's not just about the physical homes,

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it's about how do you make those homes lucrative,

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how do you make those homes livable.

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And a lot of that has to do with,

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do you have schools around you for your kids?

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Do you have hospitals, et cetera?

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And so it's a whole infrastructure system that needs to happen around these homes.

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Shaima, the Prime Minister, Fumio Kishida,

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has actually said, and it was such a dramatic statement,

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that Japan is on the brink of no longer even being able to function as a society

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because of this massive demographic problem that you've described to us.

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What's his way out of it?

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It was very unusual for him to sound so alarmed when he's actually alarmed.

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They're trying to come up with ways

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and incentives for families to move to outside of the cities and into some places in the countryside.

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They're trying financial incentives and financial aid to families with more children.

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It's about trying to shift the culture so that more people are getting married,

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more people are having babies in your own country,

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but also welcoming more people into your own country

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so that more people then occupy all of these empty spaces that you have.

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These houses, these IKEA's though,

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Shaima, they tell a much richer,

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bigger story about what is happening in the country.

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These IKEA's essentially tell the story of Japan at this very moment,

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the crisis that Japan is facing.

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The fact that this is a country that's facing a shrinking,

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ageing population, essentially a population crisis.

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Essentially, people die.

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They leave behind homes that don't hold much value, that no one wants.

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and essentially what they tell you is

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that this is a country that's emptying out and

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that is trying to find a solution to to give itself to give society

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and to give this home and to give these homes a new lease of life.

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Arigato gozaimasu Shaima.

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Arigato gozaimasu.

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Thank you Shaima.

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Thanks Lucy it's such a pleasure lovely to talk to you and thank you so much for watching.

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If you want more episodes of The Global Story,

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you can find us wherever you get your podcasts.

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You can also subscribe and don't forget to leave your comments about today's program in the section below.

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Thanks for watching.

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