शैडोइंग अभ्यास: Humble Leaders Lead Better Teams with Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink | A Bit of Optimism Podcast - YouTube के साथ अंग्रेजी बोलना सीखें

there's no one that's a that's an Uber mench in the SEAL Teams and so I think that knowing that there's always someone better than you and you're constantly

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there's no one that's a that's an Uber mench in the SEAL Teams and so I think that knowing that there's always someone better than you and you're constantly

trying to do your best and if you're not trying to do your best you're going to have problems so I think that's I love this pretty normal it's you I I don't

think it's pretty normal if you've ever seen or heard Joo willink you will know one thing about him he is big and he is imposing and if you know anything about

me I'm neither big nor imposing which is exactly why I invited him onto the podcast it's because I like to learn

from people who are nothing like me Joo is also a number one New York Times bestselling author he served 20 years in the military as a Navy SEAL where he was

the commander of task unit Bruiser the most decorated Special Operations unit in the Iraq War and so we sat down together to talk about leadership here

is what I learned what's made him such an effective and successful leader is actually his remarkable humility

this is a bit of

optimism you've made a career sharing some of the lessons you've learned in the teams out to the outside world and

helping people better lead I'm curious what you've learned since you left the

Navy that you wish the seals had that you've only learned in the outside world but I'm curious if anything tracks back yeah the I would literally completely

institutionalized you know I enlisted in the Navy at 18 years old and went straight in so when I got out I had no concept of what the outside world was

like when people ask me that question it really is the fact that when I got out and I started to working with civilian

companies the fact that every F fact facet of leadership inside the SEAL Teams translated directly to a

sales organization or a construction site or wherever it was that was the biggest lesson that I learned was oh

that human beings are human beings and leading human beings regardless of the outcome that you're looking for regardless of the mission that you're on the the human beings are going to be

human beings and that was the that was the I guess the biggest Epiphany for me but I haven't experienced anything where I where I've said oh wow that's

radically different from the way from leading people in the SEAL Teams and I'll give you one quick example when you're in the SEAL Teams people think oh well if someone doesn't meet the standard or someone's not performing

well you just get rid of them and when I was in the SEAL Teams I knew that that wasn't true guess what you have to do if someone's not performing you've got to do paperwork on them you've got to write

them up you've got to counsil them you've got to set them before a board and even then they might get recycled and so it's actually very difficult to

fire people well when I was in the Navy I thought in the civilian sector if someone's not doing what you tell them to do oh you just fire them and as soon

as I got out I realized oh no you've got to do paperwork you've got to go to HR and so it it also depends on the company

it does but some for the most part you're GNA and and it does it depends you know if somebody makes a grievous error in the SEAL Teams you you

can get rid of that person immediately and I've done that before but for the most part they're they're a lot more similar right than they are unsimilar

and and that was really again if I had some you know huge lesson that oh well in the civilian sector you've got to treat people this way yeah no or in the

civilian sector they make better progress when they do x no it's it's

crazy how much it all truly lines up I've learned a little bit hanging out with folks in uniform that I've been able to translate and bring to the

civilian world as well your knowledge is obviously vastly deeper you entered an entirely new culture where you know you had to learn business you know how old

were you when you left the Navy 30 just turned 39 okay so hitting 40 right hitting baby middle

age you know coming out at 40 you're now I'm going to learn business right there were people with 20 years Head Start

yeah right and so you're learning on the Fly and You're still learning I'm curious who your worthy Rivals are who

who are you looking at in the space that you're at and you're like they're so good and I need to learn that

you know I I always love High performers and how they view the others in their Arena to push them to be better who the pacing for for you when you talk about

you know looking at other people and seeing them either as competitiv or worthy Rivals right honestly I don't I don't I don't

know if I just uh it doesn't fact it doesn't even make sense it doesn't it it's hard for me to relate to that well then how do you know where you're falling short well part of the reason is cuz I think when I see someone that's

doing something really well yeah I don't think oh how can I take their job of I think that's cool what they're doing are

there any gaps that I could fill you know it's a it's a a story that I was I was on my last deployment and and this

Army group came in and they had really good capabilities and one of my platoon commanders was said you know hey these

guys they've got these capabilities they might take our job and I said well do you think they're they might be better than you and he goes well they might be better that job they should have the job and I said let them have the job and

well I'll find you something else to do and I'm so I I guess I'm I'm curious like how do you know where you need to do work on

yourself and maybe it's not worthy rival you know take the question a completely different direction how do you know what areas of your own work personality

leadership capability need a little tweak or a little yeah maybe no that's that's it's a real easy to answer okay

like everywhere you know I mean I and I think that's another thing is I don't when I wake up in the morning and

look around the world I'm not thinking oh I'm here oh there's someone that's better than me at that I think everyone's doing stuff that's better than me I wish I was a better writer I

wish I was a better speaker I wish I was better at social media I wish I was better at you know like everything that

I look at I wish I could do a better job and you know everything from doing Jiu-Jitsu I trained JSU all the time and

I get beat all the time and I want to get better at it but the joke running joke in my family is with my wife you know for the past 20 years she said to me what's your New Year's resolution

this year and I say I want to get better at Jiu-Jitsu and surf more and I've been saying that for 20 years and it's still true I want to get better at Jiu-Jitsu I don't want to surf more but that's kind of the way I feel about everything I

don't feel I don't feel like I'm really that good at anything you know I feel like I constantly have to try and and

get better I think that the the attitude of of hey I'm not that good

at anything yeah which is the way I grew up has stayed with me I'm not that good at anything and so I got to wake up

every day and and work hard to to be able to do what I do there's a humility in the military that is looked well upon

which doesn't really do very well in business I know a lot of guys who are freaking amazing like phenomenal

Warriors phenomenal leaders just phenomenal human beings and they enter the private sector I've seen it happen so many times and I make some introductions for them and I call the

folks I'm like so what' you think right freaking badass right phenomenal right and they're like I I don't know it seems like he's a little lost I don't know I'm like lost he's one of the most focused

guys I know and it's not because they're lost it's because they're so like you know it's not me it's my team and you know I can't really take credit for anything in the business world like what

and it's sort of that that slight modulation that they have to sort of amp up the the ego a little bit just for the business world and I think this is a really important thing that you're

touching on which is you don't think you're great at everything you don't think you're great at anything and it's that belief that actually makes you such

a high performer and I think when people lose sight of that that they think they're great at something that's

when that ego you know and because you I mean you you come in I mean like I said you're a you're a force of Nature and I think what people Miss is that how you

actually view your day today is actually more human if they copy the the the the the

picture of Joo it won't work it's this that I find the like really beautiful about you which is where does that come

from like what was your like did you have a a like was your dad hard in you like growing up or like or is it were you like a skinny kid like what what what like where did the like where did

it come from you said it it's been since I was a little kid and it's never gone away well when you're a little kid it's hard to do things and nothing was ever easy for me

you know I wasn't the best athlete I wasn't the strongest I wasn't the fastest I wasn't the smartest I got in the SEAL Teams I wasn't the strongest I wasn't the fastest I wasn't the smartest

what you have to do to overcome that is You' got to work hard and you've and so you get humbled all the time and and by the way if you're good at one thing in in the SEAL Teams there's someone that's

better at that thing than you and by the way no one cares if you're a really good swimmer people like oh yeah but can't do many pull-ups or if you're a good runner

they'll say oh yeah but you're not good with a ruck sack on or if you're good with a ruck sack on they'll say yeah but you're a bad shot so there's no mercy right there's no mercy there's no one that's a that's an Uber mench in the

SEAL Teams and so I think that always knowing that you you're there's always someone better than you and you're

you're constantly trying to do your best and if you're not trying to do your best you're going to have problems so I think that's I love this pretty normal it's

you I I don't think it's pretty normal I think yes fact there's always someone better than you at everything fact yes by if if that's what we mean by normal

then as a as a data point yes but as a perception point I think so often the opposite happens in business which is like you're you're great at that you're

you're the best at that in fact we're going to make you the hero at that and somebody they sort of start straightening up their shirt and I've made the mistake myself I've accidentally hero wise folks who are

really good at what they do and they start to inhale their own fumes and like a year later I'm like what the hell have I created here right I just was giving you a couple compliments so youd boost

your confidence there and it goes out of check and this idea of being okay knowing not

pretending deep knowing there's always somebody better always somebody better at everything I do and so the only

option I have is to keep at it yeah yeah and it it really allows you to keep an open mind too because if you're in a leadership

position and you go into a room and you're trying to come up with a plan for something and if in your mind you deeply know in your own mind that you're the

smartest person with the best perspective and your plan's going to be the best plan it's going to be bad your mind is closed you're not going to listen to what anyone else says you're going to impose your plan on them

they're going to execute the plan only because they have no other choice because you're the boss and it's not going to go as well as it should and when they run into an obstacle they're going to stutter step because they know

that they're just doing what you told them to do they don't have any ownership of it so it's problematic but if you truly think well when I go in this room

with my 10 subordinate leaders I know that they're going to have better ideas than me I deeply know that their ideas are going to be better or at least they'll have a point of view that I

don't have whatever it is and then my mind is open and when someone makes a point and I go oh yeah that makes sense why don't we go in that direction at the risk of belaboring the point I think

this is really really important for for for junior leaders and Senior leaders right so for a Junior leader I think Junior leaders feel like they have have to prove that they're worthy of the

title worthy of the risk you know like you pick the right person you know and like and that shows up in a little bit of a little too much a little too much I

used to tell the Young Junior officers you have nothing to prove but you have everything to prove yeah when you're in charge of a platoon you don't need to

prove to the platoon that you're in charge right you don't need to say well hey we're doing it my way or hey this is my plan you don't need to do that in fact it's offensive your credibility

doesn't come from that no right what you have to prove to them is that you'll listen to them that you'll make a when a decision has to get made you'll take all the pertinent points in and you'll make

a good decision and you'll be able to back them up and you'll you care about the team that's what you have to prove to them but you don't have to prove that you're in charge so that's the guy that you're talking about that walks into the

room and is like all right I better prove to everyone that this is my idea or prove to my or prove to those above me that they hired the right guy exactly you know exactly I love that and I think as you so I think for a Junior leader

what you're you're learning the fundamentals of leadership which is you've got to take care of your team rely on your team I think as you become more senior this attitude that you're talking about it

does something slightly different which is now and you said it which is it teaches you open-mindedness right even if you're good at caring and good at offering that top cover now what you're learning and

it's in other words once you've learned it once it's not learned like it's a practice Yeah uh not a lesson it's counterintuitive to have an open mind

and it's counterintuitive to to say on a daily basis I'm not the best in fact there's someone everywhere who's better

than me that's the way it is and I again like I think the humility is often missed when we teach people like SEAL training because people high performing

it's Larger than Life even the the movies help you know I think people miss that there's a very human and and you know this even better

than I do I've cried with more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit I've hugged more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit you know there's a there's a

humanity and I guess because the stakes are life and death but there's a deep deep humanity and love and caring and those words you know the Marines call them the

intangibles the only way to put it which is love like like seals are high performing not because they're gorillas that's just a that's just a component to

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get through selection the seals are high performing because they love each other

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even deeper than than you can imagine and I would see it happen when I when I had the opportunity to visit carnado and I'd see

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who I I don't even think they knew each other they would hug like brothers and I think that's often missed yeah there's a lot of things that get missed and

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there's a lot of stereotypical you know viewpoints that people have and this is one of the you you talked about some of the things that

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I learned when when I got out well one of the things that I learned that I got when I got out was that just like I had this impression of the civilian sector

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that you know oh if you got someone that's not doing what they're supposed to be doing you can just fire them they all had the impression that in the military when the commander gives the

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order everyone just gets in line and follows the order exactly and that couldn't be further from the truth and so you get this idea that there's this tyrannical authoritarian leadership is

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the best form of leadership or that's the form of leadership that they use in the military and that's terrible now doesn't it exist in the military yes it does exist in the military does it exist

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in the civilian sector oh it definitely exists in the civilian sector now there's a great book that I covered on my podcast it's called

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the psychology of military incompetence yeah yeah it's a fantastic book you know the guy that wrote it was a in World War I he was wounded and then he became a

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psychologist but you know he points out that the military attracts people who see that authoritarianism from the

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outside and they think oh that's exactly what I want to be a part of yeah and that mentality works I hate to say it but actually works

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well in Garrison environments meaning where there's no combat going on if we're on the parade field if I have to if you got your platoon and I'm going to

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come and inspect your rooms and you're authoritarian dictator guess what the rooms look great and everyone's in a perfect uniform and everyone's cleanly shaved and I think you're doing a great

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job because you're a tyranical leader and you barked orders and you yelled and screamed and you went and did the white glove on them before I showed up to inspect so I think man Simon's such a

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great leader that mindset though that closed mindset which is I don't give me the input clean the way I told you to clean it works in a non-combat environment but when you get in a combat

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environment all of a sudden you've got variables yeah and this is why combat leaders good combat leaders hopefully they have very open minds yeah

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they have to they have to have an open mind they have to be very creative they have to actually be the other end of the spectrum from the authoritarian dictator

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and so what happens is in peace time things start to lean towards these authoritarian dictators being put in senior positions they get promoted

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because why what happens what happens to the you know to the creative open-minded leader well he was out with the boys he got in trouble for this he they were on

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an exercise and he did this radical thing that was outside the rule set and he got in trouble and he got written up and so now he's not getting promoted

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yeah that's the guy you want in combat it's David schwimmer's character in banded Brothers It's 100% he was great in Garrison he's great in Garrison put him in in in the chaos and just fell

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apart and he fell apart and you know what did his team think of him yeah he his team thought of him they didn't respect him they didn't like him they didn't want to follow him yeah and you

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know what happened to that guy in real life it was I looked him up it wasn't good he lived a lonely life didn't he he

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attempted suicide he failed yeah he was blind and what was really interesting about that is that he to his death yeah

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blamed his whole life on easy company yeah all the failings in his life was because of easy company and it just made

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me think you romanticize your experience in the military and the things that were good you just hold on to them that was the the best of times but when someone

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has a bad experience or something bad happens they hang on to that and that becomes what what that guy carried to the Grave yeah himself so yeah but

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that's a great example and then the other side you had dick Winters who was the heroic leader in Band of Brothers who listened to his troops who never

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yelled and screamed and you asked about my experience and how I ended up like this where that humility came from but I I was in a seal platoon and we had a

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tyrannical leader and the tyrannical leader he didn't have a lot of experience he' come from a different part of the Navy and then joined the

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SEAL Teams at a relatively senior uh grade and in order to make up for his inexperience he kind of over indexed and you know imposed plans on people and

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didn't listen to anyone it was my way or the highway and it was just terrible and we had a mutiny against this guy huh and so we all the the the enlisted guys in

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the platoon went before the commanding officer we went before his boss and we told the commanding officer hey this guy doesn't listen to us he's arrogant he's

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got a big ego he's imposing his plans on us we don't want to work for him which is a mutiny and just so you know the the punishment for Mutiny in

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the military is death actually well you know this was peace time and and the commanding officer was a really a great guy and he said listen this sounds like a mutiny we don't have mutin in the Navy

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I'm not going to have a muttin at my Seal Team go figure it out and luckily he was a good commanding officer and so he kind of pulled the thread and started

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asking more questions of the training Cadre to find out what the guy was like and he fired him three days later and so we were celebrating you

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know oh great you know look what we did we won right and then we found out who is going to take his place and the

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guy that they were putting in to take his place the new platoon Commander was this legendary seal who everybody knew

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he'd come up through the ranks from you the junior position almost to the top of the enlisted ranks and then became an officer and then started going up the ranks the officer he had combat

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experience he was at every different Seal Team he he just was a legendary seal I didn't know him but we all knew his name I wrote about him in this book

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leadership strategy and tactics and I I called him DC so I'll call him DC so DC we find out that this legendary guy is going to take over and one day we're supposed to meet

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him he's coming after lunch and we've got our little platoon Hut out there and we're sitting in the platoon Hut and I'm kind of the guy on watch looking for this guy to show up and there's guys

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coming out of the locker rooms oh that's not him another guy comes out it's not him and then finally this guy comes out and I go maybe this is him he starts walking towards our platoon

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Hut and as he starts getting closer and I look at him I go this can't be the guy because this guy looks like he's about 150 PBS can't be him but he keeps coming

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towards us and then I'm like oh wait this guy's like short like how old how is this guy 5'8 what is this guy doing he can't be a legendary

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seal keeps coming towards us and as he gets closer he's got like he's old you know he's an old guy he had to have bit

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at least like 37 right so I'm thinking there's no way that this old skinny short guy is this legendary seal and sure enough he walks in our

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platoon space and it was him mhm and we very quickly figured out why this guy was a legendary seal because he walked in he said hey sorry to hear about what

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happened with your last Commander uh I'm not worried about it I'm just looking forward to working with you guys right then not I'm the new Commander not this

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is my platoon not there's a new sheriff in town it was I'm looking forward to working with you guys yeah and that set

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the tone guy was the most humble leader yeah and you know not only so so I got to see this as a young guy I was

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probably 22 or something it was my second platoon what what made it very clear to me was because I got to see this stark contrast between a guy that was arrogant

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and egotistical and how much we disliked him and that we literally had a mutiny because we didn't want to follow him and

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when this other guy took over that was humble that listened to us that treated us with respect we would follow that guy anywhere and that's the guy that I've

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tried to emulate m throughout my career follow-up

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question how did you learn when to turn on command and control in the chaos because I think a lot of people are listening to this they're hearing the

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lessons about humility asking questions but there are times when that guy he had earned the trust so that when he could

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flip the switch in the chaos and it was barking orders and there wasn't you know I'd like to hear your opinions you

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know when did you see that happen like because it's I think people and we've been we've sort of been dancing around it which is people choose to be either

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this lovely beautiful kind humble leader they choose that path or they choose the path of command and control but the the

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answer is you do need both you can't be Comm out and control all the time but there are episodes where this guy this legendary seal did turn it on when did

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he turn it on and when did he turn it off people ask me that very question right how do you know when to do that and here's the way that I did it this is

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what I saw him do first of all there's going to be times where what you're talking about is there's a leadership vacuum there's a moment in time whether it's in a meeting whether it's on the

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battlefield whether it's making a decision where there's a leadership vacuum no one is stepping up and taking charge it's obviously quiet and it's

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obviously quiet yeah now when that happens here's what I do if there's a leadership vacuum out no one's making a decision I'm going to pause I actually

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want everyone in the room to know and feel that there's a leadership vacuum I want everyone in the room to go because if I jump in too early

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there's a couple people maybe you were about to you know Simon had an idea he was about to say something and I just cut him off and now he's going to be begrudgingly executing what I told him to do and he's going to think he didn't

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get a chance to step up so I'm going to pause long enough and in combat it might be 3 seconds in a business meeting it

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might be 30 seconds it might be a minute if it's a long email exchange it might be three days right I'm I'm on the CC line and people are going back and forth

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and all of a sudden you know I'm going to chime in so when that leadership vacuum occurs I'm going to

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give it at least enough time that everybody feels it and once they feel it I'm going to make a small iterative

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decision to move in a direction that I think is best at that moment in time and then we're going to move in that

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direction I'm going to keep an open mind and we're going to get feedback on the decision that I make just made I'm going to make the smallest decision I can by the way and this is something that again

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this is something that I use to cheat in the SEAL Teams because I was known in the SEAL Teams for being very decisive if a decision needed to get made I would make a decision but I would make a

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little tiny decision but no one's really thinking about that at the time but if if you and I are getting shot at or my our platoon is getting shot at from you

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know somewhere up to to the north well what's my decision going to be is it going to be attack that's one decision is it going to be Retreat that's another decision

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those are big decisions to make but what if I just say Simon go to the rooftop tell me what you see up to the north okay I just made that decision and

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everyone goes oh joo's got this we're good now you go up and you tell me what you see and maybe you see a lot of enemy maybe you don't see very many enemy maybe we can move

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forward but I'm gonna make a a the smallest decision that I can MH and and by the way if the next decision is going to be made if someone else makes the

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next decision I'm fine with it I don't ever feel like I need to talk and in fact when I do have to step in make a decision I normally will decipher that

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later and try and figure out okay what did I do wrong where Simon didn't make a call I like this idea of making the little decision I mean it does multiple things right it establishes that somebody's going to take accountability

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it also builds trust right because you're not taking unnecessary risk too soon even if it's the right Choice um it doesn't make people skittish it's a very

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clever thing I think there's and as as we're talking about I'm thinking about there's also you know I think as we practice good leadership you're simultaneously learning good

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followership because I assume that in chaos of combat that when the leader starts actually barking orders that the

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good followers those in the care of the of that leader they also know when is the right time to say I'd like to contribute I think I have an idea and they know you know what I'm I'm GNA

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follow I'm gonna follow y it go it goes hand in hand knowing when to ask but also knowing when to not volunteer it does boil down to trust as well but this

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is something that's built up over time because if we're if you and I are in the street we're in a gunfight and I look at

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you and I'm the guy in charge and I look at you and say Simon get in that building right there get to the roof and put down cover fire that's not the time where you're

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going to say well actually you know I if you could explain me the why behind that I'd really like to know now because you're going to go oh we're in a

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gunfight joo's got a plan and I'm going to go execute it and you're going to go execute it most of the time because

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there's a chance that when I say peek at you from behind this wall I'm hiding behind with shots firing over my head I say Simon go get in that building there

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take the roof put down cover fire right there's a chance that you look back at me yeah and you say negative now why you saying that to me

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you might have information you see something that I don't see maybe there's a you know uh IEDs in the in the in the

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yeah in the driveway there's a reason why you can't do that and when they say negative you don't say damn it you listen to me they say ah when you hear Negative they know something I don't

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know quick exchange and then either adapt or not and really what it boils down to then is now we're going to go a little bit deeper and I am going to tell you why yeah I'm going to give you the

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why and I'm going to let you go execute I'm going say well I need cover fire help me and you go okay got it I'm going to that building and I'm going to be

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able to put down cover fire you so that that trust that you build up and knowing when to step in and make a call again

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you want to do it as seldom as possible because the more you talk the less people listen you know that's another thing like we I would not talk on my

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radio in fact when I was a platoon Commander when I was a troop Commander our radios were almost always silent and

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when I did say something on the radio when I came up on the radio and said everyone get to building 34 now like people knew that they were going to get

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there no matter what and that's because I wasn't saying hey can you push two guys over to this building here hey somebody give me some reports on where that hallway is getting no no no one did

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that no one did that and it was like radio silence all the time you know what a leader is doing is fostering relationships fostering trust all the words that we use in good leadership you

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know you find in families and personal relationships it's very human and what what we're talking about is like when we get along uh that doesn't mean we have

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to like each other it's preferable but not not 100% necessary but uh and this is one of the things I find wonderful about military which is the trust is so deep that you know I'll risk my life for

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somebody I don't necessarily even like which I find fascinating but when the Team Dynamics work and you get the

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relationships working then it works and I think a lot of leaders they're so focused on the goal they're so focused on the quarterly result they're focused

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on even the strategy that they sometimes forget that there's a whole group of people that have to come along to execute it be engaged enjoy it and

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unlike the military you know they go home at the end of the day or they have got a side hustle or you know they have

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options they can quit and they're not forced to do anything in the military there's still a there still a military

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structure and and you know they can dis Gage of course mhm and they can literally just say we're not doing this yeah seals in Vietnam that would get

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told this is a classic story that I would hear as a young seal you know when I came in there's still seals Vietnam seals in and if they got some told to do something they didn't want to do this is

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a classic story oh they get told hey go do an ambush on this on this River that's you know over here tonight and the guys would say hey there's a lot of enemy activity we don't think it's going

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to be a good and shut up and do it they' go okay cool they'd get their gear on they' Patrol 100 met outside the gate

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they sit down hang out for 5 hours walk back in the you know when the sun came up and say yeah we didn't run into anything so they they complied right but

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they didn't actually execute so even though in the military sure there's the the thought that they're just going to do what you tell them to do but they're actually not they're not going to do

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that another great you know you you brought it's it's it's quiet quitting you you brought up Band of Brothers that's another great scene that I bring up quite often is you know there's the the scene in the end of band brother

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Brothers where he gets told hey go do a reconnaissance across the river yeah and Dick witer says hey I don't really think we should do that hey shut up and go do it he says okay they go do it they take

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a casualty I think a guy even gets killed they come back hey we didn't see anything and by the way the war is all but over at this point Y it's a stupid and the colonel next night says go do it

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again and he says I don't think we should do this says go do it again and he says um okay Roger that and they go into a basement they drink wine they

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play cards and they don't do the mission so that happens in the milit abely theary and so that's why again

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notar ands that way but it works that way if the team is it's still human beings if the team isn't on board with the what we're doing then we have a

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problem and you know you're talking about relationships and for years I was telling people here you know you ask what what have I discovered in the past few years for years I was telling people

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hey you got to have relationships you got to build relationships you got to have relationships you got to build relationships and and I was work with a company and I was looking at this woman I said hey you got to build a relationship and I could see the look on

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her face was a combination of like yeah I know dummy but what does that even mean you know that was the look on her face not actionable yeah she

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it was like go make a friend yes go make a friend thank you and so I ended up thinking to myself you know I keep telling people to have relationships

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build relationships what's a relationship yeah and I ended up figuring out in my mind what the components of a relationship are trust

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listen respect influence and Care trust listen respect influence and care if you want people to listen to you you have to listen to them and it goes right on down the line if you want people to trust you

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you've got to give them trust if you want people to respect you you've got to treat them with respect if you want to have influence over people you've got to

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actually allow them to influence you and if you want people to care about you then you need to care about them and that's the way it works and the biggest

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obstacle to all those things is my ego because why should I listen to Simon I've been here for longer than him or

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why should I respect him I I I outrank him he should show me respect right why should he be why should I be influenced by him I know this way better than he

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does and those that my ego comes in and now I end up with a bad relationship with people so if we can get our ego under control and we can be humble then

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we can build good relationships with people so good and then just going back to your original point there is you know when people talk about oh we got to make this we got to make this number or

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whatever what team wins yeah the team with 10 people on it where they hate each other and don't get along or the team that everyone's friends and they get along and they get after it who's

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going to win it's it's no one gets that question wrong the team that gets along the team that has good relationships wins all day long and by the way going back what makes the SEAL Teams

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good it's not because we're can do pull-ups it's not cuz we can shoot straight like yeah those things come in but the reason we're good is cuz we care about about each other cuz we have good

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relationships and by the way not all seal platoons are good there are seal platoons that are disasters there are seal platoons that get

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disbanded occasionally where they take an entire group of these you know high-performing top tier guys and they

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disband them yeah why it's not because the people on the team aren't in good physical condition it's not because the people on the team don't know how to

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shoot their weapons it's not because they don't understand tactics the reason that they get disbanded is because they have bad relationships yeah it's a

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disaster and you see that in any organization yeah so good I love that construction I think that is bang on did you miss the Brotherhood have you been

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able to find it back out in the in the civilian World well I mean I have a company called Aon front and we work with a bunch of our guys I mean

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literally the guys it's the guys now we have other people as well you know we brought in a bunch of other people but those people understand too and we're

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all in the same you know mind set of trying to share these lessons with as many people as I can but listen I'm not

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going to lie to you do I miss being in a seal platoon 100% there's nothing better it's the best job in the world there's

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nothing better I will miss that forever I would I knew it at the time yeah you know I'm I'm lucky enough that you know when I was in charge of a of a of a sealed task unit when I was a platoon

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Commander I was older because I had been enlisted so I knew that this was as good as it's going to get and I relished every every single day as much as I

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possibly could and it broke my heart every day that that that got ticked off the calendar that it was that much further away from from being my life but

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it's the best job in the world and it and I miss it every single day that's the one thing every vet I've ever met whether they loved the military or hated the military they all missed the Brotherhood and The Sisterhood and

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they've never found it in the outside world not a one I I was in a call with there's a the the the army unit that I

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worked for in raditi was my last deployment uh the the ready first brigade the first Armored Division and we're we're having a big reunion in

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Texas and we were on a call the other day so it's basically like the the Battalion commanders and the Brigade commander and all these these guys are now retired generals and

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Colonels and but it it was I noticed it three minutes into the call these were the guys that we would have Brigade meetings right and how big as a brigade

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brigades there was 5,600 people but these these Brigade meetings that we had which we we had probably twice a week MH

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you know where people are going through who was wounded who was killed what what problems we were having they were the most the heaviest gravity in these

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meetings and for a moment you know I thought about all those meetings where we'd be talking about you know what when the memorial service was for a soldier

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or a marine that was killed it was heartbreaking and and then the determination to make a difference in that City and then you fast forward it's

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coming up on 20 years it'll be the 20- year reunion and here was this group of of of men that I was in this Zoom call with and

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instantly I just felt you know this this camaraderie that was was just awesome it was awesome to be sitting on a zoom call

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with these guys who who I'd sat in a room with and been on the battlefield with you know Colonel McFarland just each one of these guys I'd been out there on the battlefield with them while

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we're doing things and yes I do I miss that I miss it every single day it was a terrible time there was

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heartbreaking you know sacrifices that were made and yet I miss it is there a mission that you did in

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the teams or something that you've done outside the teams that you wish all the things you do in from this point on will be more like that and it doesn't have to

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have been successful commercially or militarily but when you look back at it you're like that that one is the one that stands out I I want that feeling there was a moment

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in time I was in task unit Commander this is 2006 we did a six-month deployment we're probably five months into deployment and

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you know we had taken casualties we lost guys it was a very difficult deployment and towards the end of that deployment I

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forget even what the mission was but we were patrolling through the street and we were leaving somewhere I was out there as a ground Force Commander and so

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I'm the senior guy in charge but it's not nothing big is happening and I remember you know running back and I'm holding a corner and as I'm holding a corner I'm I'm kind of watching the the

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the guys and they were so good and so squared away and it just looked

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like it just looked beautiful and just to see this this group of guys that were

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so honed and so good and it's so focused and I remember watching just thinking to myself this is it this is the high point of my life right here being a part of

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this crew but you you've had good teams you've had good missions you've sat back and watched the thing work as you're

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describing what was it about this Patrol that stands out from all the other patrols where it worked as well it was a combination of the fact that because in

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that particular moment everything was going fine so I didn't really I wasn't looking for that leadership vacuum I was I was detached was able to just

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be be be almost an observer there's a perfect alignment of events that you could take that watching and just getting to see and you know whatever the

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the actual tactical terrain was set me up in a spot where I could see and I could watch and I could say dang you know for wasn't worried about anything

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and I just was watching going yeah this is as good as it gets it's great give me an early specific happy childhood memory specific that I can relive with

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you I got one for and um I was playing soccer this is specific Yep this is specific I was

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playing soccer and my dad was coaching the game somebody kicked a ball and it hit me in the face and my nose started

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bleeding and so there's blood going everywhere and my dad just left me in the game like no Factor keep playing and

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I just remember thinking all right that's how we roll and and what was it about that that of all the memories you had in your normal childhood what was it

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about that memory that makes you smile and what me want to tell me now I I think it was a little foreshadowing of just you know hey I'm going to keep

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going yeah and that's what we're going to do we're going to keep going regardless of what happens so you do realize those two stories you tell me are exactly the same story right except in the in the combat story you weree

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your dad which is you just trusted that if they were in aching or if they weren't

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whatever was going on yeah they're going to keep going that they that they had the wherewithal to just keep going for the team MH your dad sat on the sideline and just said all

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right whatever look at this beautiful team workor going keep going and for that brief second in that mission that

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you were your dad interesting yeah I that that you had built your team in this case your dad had built up you and

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the rest of the team because it was also the team not just you that he he didn't need to pull you out he he could just sit back and trust that the work that he

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had done was working it's the exact same story interesting I think what it captures is the joy of leadership the

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joy of parenting the joy of all of these things that we a good leader Works tirelessly on the individuals and the relationships and making it all work but

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at some point you know it works not because the numbers show that it works because the numbers can lie but you get

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that weird sitb back moment and just smile to yourself you know those moments of it all the sacrifices all the stress

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was worth it uh and that's why we do it for those unexpected glimmers you don't know when they're You' have no idea that in the

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middle of a freaking war zone that that would be the moment that you'd find out you your dad had no idea that it was when his kid got hit in the face with a ball that that was the moment he'd be

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like it's all working you know people work so hard for the dopamine hit to know that they found something or achieved something and good leaders work

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for the the serotonin and the oxytocin hit that's what that is that's pride and much harder to get than a

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dopamine hit a lot more work than a dopamine hit dopamine hits are freaking easy yeah you know write a goal you got one in your pocket figure figure out a

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plan you know there you go dopamine and we've built all these incentive structures around dopamine hits which is the problem but the reality is we need more incentive structures around

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serotonin hits which are really hard and requires so much damn work but when you get it ain't no better feeling yeah yeah there's no

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doubt about that and that's what I love about these things Joo it's such a pleasure to meet you finally yeah great to meet you as well to too long in the

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making indeed too long in the making if you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more please subscribe

303

wherever you like to listen to podcasts and if you'd like even more optimism check out my website simon.com for

304

classes videos and more until then take care of yourself take care of each other a bit of optimism is a production

305

of the optimism company it's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbus David jaw and Devon Johnson our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg

306

rudan

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