Практика Shadowing: Bill Gates, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett on the socialism versus capitalism debate - Изучайте разговорный английский с YouTube
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Gentlemen, we've talked an awful lot on our air recently about socialism versus capitalism,
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Gentlemen, we've talked an awful lot on our air recently about socialism versus capitalism,
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defending capitalism, all of the different political pressures that are kind of being brought as we get into another election year.
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And I thought maybe we could talk about that this morning, too.
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Over the weekend, several questions came up about defending capitalism.
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And Warren, you did step out and say that you're a card-carrying member,
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a card-carrying capitalist in front of everyone.
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What do you think about the attacks that we've seen to this point on capitalism?
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Well, I don't think people exactly even know what they're talking about.
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It isn't that capitalism is perfect.
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But if you look at what was here in 1776 and look at what is here now,
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this country has done an incredible job in terms of the deployment of resources and human ingenuity.
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And that is a product of the system.
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Now, does that mean that Every decision should be made simply by open market determinants.
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There's a need for regulation, obviously.
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And there are things that have long-term costs and might not get built in.
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But the idea of people unleashing their potential,
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using the resources they have to create what we have now,
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from what was here 240-some years ago, it's absolutely a miracle and what all three of us have seen during our lifetime.
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And if you compare that with any centralized planned economy,
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I think we win hands down.
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And I think we've just started with what capitalism can produce in the United States.
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But I do think that,
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obviously, it needs certain rules and regulations.
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BILL MOYERS, Bill, you did an interview in Davos with someone and I,
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you made a pretty innocuous statement that you looked around,
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you thought capitalism was the best system
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and you got attacked online from all these people who came
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up with these crazy statements about how could you say things like that.
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I mean, what do you think about the climate when you see things like that?
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Well, some people think when you defend capitalism,
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you're defending the tax rates we have today and saying that higher absolute tax rates or more progressive tax rates,
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that you're disagreeing with them.
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And I don't think Warren and I are disagreeing that you could make the taxes more progressive.
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In fact, we've been very explicit in some areas,
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like the estate tax, and saying we think that would be a good thing.
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Socialism… You got your wish, it came back.
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Socialism used to mean that the state controlled the means of production.
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And a lot of people who are promoting socialism actually aren't using that classic definition.
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So what we're going to have is capitalism with some level of taxation.
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most people really aren't arguing against capitalism.
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There may be a few,
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but most people are just saying that the taxes should change.
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Although you do have someone who I think is polling the second highest in the Democratic Party right now,
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who was a socialist until very recently, Bernie Sanders.
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Well, whether or not he was a socialist by the full term of that,
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Now, there is some muddy areas.
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When you start to say there shouldn't be any billionaires,
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that you have some cap on wealth or something like that,
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that goes beyond what I think.
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And you could say I'm self-interested.
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Really?
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We will accept the present ones.
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But government needs to reallocate some resources.
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I mean, the extreme case would be in World War II.
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I mean, that's the closest we've come to socialism.
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You had an office of Price Administration.
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You had a war production board.
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I mean, but during peacetime,
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you're always prepared for war,
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and you do that through government.
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Government needs to reallocate some resources.
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But the market system, which exists under capitalism,
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is an extraordinarily effective way,
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and has proven it, of using resources,
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human and other kinds, to produce incredible goods.
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And Henry Ford could learn,
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devise a system that could turn out a couple million cars a year,
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but he could only use half a dozen himself,
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or his whole family could use 50.
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I mean, he had to turn out a couple million cars that other people got to use.
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And that would not have,
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in my view, I think if you'd set up a government bureau in 1850
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and given them 100 years of all the coronals,
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you'd have ever come up with anything like the assembly lines of Ford and all of the things that have happened.
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Human ingenuity is incredible.
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And you want something that maximizes its use
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and then curbs a few of the ideas
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that some of those people may have to sort of have it fall for themselves.
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Charlie, you've made the same point.
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The great proof of how capitalism works is China.
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When China copied Singapore and let the farmers own their own plots
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and let the manufacturers own their own businesses and so forth,
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China's productivity increased many times.
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And they went from rural poverty to modern extreme wealth.
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And they did it by adopting a fair amount of capitalism.
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Now, if a Democratic politician doesn't understand that, he's nuts.
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You've made the same point,
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though, Charlie, that you think private sector does it much better than the government sector.
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However, a lot of these people who are running also want to make government much bigger.
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Do you have a quarrel with that or no?
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Well, as they say, if you love your post office,
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you're going to love socialized medicine.
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And they don't necessarily want to make it bigger in terms of redistributing.
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They may want to, the market system is brutal,
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and it leaves behind people who are perfectly wonderful people who don't have market-related talents.
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Who are just unlucky.
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Yeah, just plain unlucky.
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And in a rich society,
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believe me, if we have a war or something like that,
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we call on those people and,
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you know, pay them practically nothing to go fight for us.
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AND WE WANT GOOD FLOWING,
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BUT IT'S GOING TO DISPLACE THE TEXTILE WORKER THAT WE USED TO HAVE AND SO ON.
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SO THE FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER.
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IT MAY BE IN AN IMPORTANT WAY TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE WHO,
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FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER,
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So the function of government is not necessarily to get bigger.
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It may be in an important way to take care of people who,
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for one reason or another,
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get left behind in a market system that you also regard as essentially this huge source of wealth and goods and services.
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So how do you fix the problems,
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or at least the perception of problems,
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which there's a huge perception out there in the American voting right now? obviously would help
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if our government were wiser and it would be wiser
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if the two sides didn't hate each other
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so much anger drives out reason
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and there is absolute cold fury between politicians on one side and politicians on the other it's quite counterproductive for
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that reason i don't allow myself to get angry at politicians
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how would you fix it well i just I just don't let myself get that angry at politicians.
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I don't expect them to be...
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Berger has worked better because Charlie and I have never been mad at each other.
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Yeah.
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It just does.
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I mean, way better.
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If we got mad at each other,
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I'd try and kill his deals,
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he'd try to kill my deals.
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It just doesn't work that way.
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We don't need a couple of alpha males blustering at one another over this stuff.
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They ought to just cool it and take a little reputational hit and get the feathers.
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But we ought to worry about the people that don't fit into the system.
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We want the system.
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And a lot of people are getting left further and further behind because as capitalism gets more advanced,
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it gets more specialized, and there actually is greater difference between the haves and the have-nots.
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And the haves can take care of the have-nots.
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Interesting is both parties basically agree on that.
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They just...
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Yeah, so how you get there, that gets complicated income tax credit can make a huge jump in that direction.
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I mean, Social Security, well, we've done various things.
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Over the years, we have improved.
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We've improved the public school systems.
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We've improved things that do give people more of an equal chance and take care of people who fall by the wayside.
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We just got to keep doing it.
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Thank you.
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