跟讀練習: Professor Explains the Truth About Learning a Language After 50 | Dr. Simone Pfenninger - 通過影片學習英語口語

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Is it ever too late to learn a language?

學習語言永遠不會太晚嗎？

The short answer is no. It's never too late.

簡單來說，答案是否定的。什麼時候都不晚。

Obviously, there are limits.

顯然，凡事都有界限。

I think scholars talk about a critical period.

我認為學者們會談到關鍵期這個概念。

It's a pretty old hypothesis, and you can probably already sense that there's a couple of issues with that.

這是一個相當古老的假設，你可能已經感覺到它存在一些問題。

You talked about bilingual schools.

你之前提到了雙語學校。

These types of schools are pretty expensive.

這類學校的學費相當昂貴。

Do you think it's worth it at all?

你覺得這到底值不值得？

Yes, I do.

是的，我願意。

It's not so much about the length of study.

這跟學習時長關係不大。

It's more about intensity and how condensed those hours are.

這更多關乎的是強度，以及那些時間的緊湊程度。

Dr. Simone Fenninger, you're a professor right now at the University of Zurich, which is, you know, the biggest university in Switzerland, if I remember correctly.

西蒙娜·芬寧格博士，您現在是蘇黎世大學的教授，如果我沒記錯的話，那是瑞士最大的大學。

A well-known university in Europe and worldwide.

一所在歐洲乃至全球都享有盛譽的大學。

You were an associate professor at the University of Salzburg in Austria in second language acquisition, which is to say, you know,

您曾是奧地利薩爾茨堡大學的第二語言習得方向副教授，也就是說，您知道，

language learning for the common folks and psycholinguistics.

面向普通大眾的語言學習與心理語言學。

And a lot of your work has to do with age and language learning.

您的很多研究都與年齡和語言學習有關。

The first thing I want to ask is, is it ever too late to learn a language?

我首先想問的是，學習語言會不會太晚了？

The short answer is no. it's never too late.

簡單來說，答案是否定的，什麼時候都不晚。

There are essentially no inherent limits to second language acquisition.

第二語言習得本質上不存在固有限制。

Obviously, there are limits, but those are more shaped by the circumstances that surround the learner.

顯然，存在一定的限制，但這些限制更多是由學習者所處的環境因素決定的。

And that may include time, the time that you have on your hands,

這其中可能包括時間，也就是你手頭擁有的時間。

support, available resources, access to target language speakers,

支援、可用資源、與目標語言使用者的接觸渠道

the target language culture, prestige, the prestige, the status of the target language, among many other variables.

目標語文化、聲望、該聲望、目標語的地位，以及諸多其他變數。

So very often,

很多時候，

the age differences that we observe reflect differences in the situation of learning rather than in the capacity to learn, if that makes sense.

如果這麼說能理解的話，我們觀察到的年齡差異反映的是學習情境的差異，而不是學習能力的差異。

So I find rather than asking, is it ever too late?

所以我覺得，與其去問是不是已經太晚了，

The more interesting question for me as an SLA scholar is why do some individuals acquire new skills more efficiently

作為一名二語習得（SLA）研究者，對我來說更有意思的問題是，為什麼有些人能更高效地掌握新技能。

and more rapidly than others?

而且比其他人更快？

Right.

It's the same in psychology when they investigate why some individuals are more affected by cognitive decline than others.

在心理學領域，研究人員探究為何有些人比其他人更容易受到認知衰退的影響時，情況也是如此。

What's the recipe, right?

這到底是什麼配方啊？

What do they have that others do not have?

他們有什麼是別人沒有的？

That is really interesting to investigate.

這真的很值得研究。

So there is not one standard magical age when abilities change abruptly in a way that affects learning and development,

因此，並不存在一個統一的標準魔法年齡，在這個年齡時能力會突然發生變化，進而影響學習和發展。

you know, from one day to the next.

你知道的，就像是一夜之間突然發生的。

The current consensus among cognitive scientists is really that the brain remains plastic throughout life.

認知科學家目前的共識確實是，大腦在整個生命過程中都保持著可塑性。

And by plasticity, I mean just the brain's ability to reorganize neural connections in response to a learning experience

這裡所說的可塑性，指的就是大腦在學習過程中重組神經連線的能力。

so the message really is that the brain is modified by experience at any age

所以核心觀點其實是，大腦在任何年齡階段都會因經歷而發生改變。

and all experiences leave their mark across the lifespan

所有經歷都會在人的一生中留下印記。

so experiences constantly shape how we respond to future situations experiences create knowledge obviously

因此，經歷會不斷塑造我們應對未來情況的方式，顯然，經歷會創造知識。

and expertise for learning and experiences can change the brain.

以及學習和體驗所需的專業知識，都能改變大腦。

But there's no magical age when we say, okay, now the window is closed and you're doomed.

但並沒有一個神奇的年齡，到了那個年紀我們就會說，好了，現在視窗已經關閉，你已經沒希望了。

I think scholars talk about a critical period.

我認為學者們討論過關鍵期這一概念。

Is that a thing?

還有這種事？

To what extent does it affect us, if at all?

如果它確實會對我們產生影響，那麼影響究竟有多大？

Yeah, I mean, that's a

是啊，我的意思是，這真是個

hypothesis called the critical period hypothesis that goes back to the 50s and 60s of the last centuries.

有一種被稱為關鍵期假說的理論，其起源可以追溯到上世紀五六十年代。

It's a pretty old hypothesis and it was first formulated for first language acquisition rather than second language acquisition.

這是一個相當古老的假設，最初是為第一語言習得而非第二語言習得提出的。

And over the years it's made its way into second language acquisition, but originally it was formulated for first language acquisition.

多年來，這一理論逐漸被應用於第二語言習得領域，但它最初是為第一語言習得而提出的。

And there's two main assumptions to this hypothesis.

這個假說有兩個主要假設。

One is, like I said, it's this idea that there's a clear cutoff line.

其一，就像我剛才說的，是存在一條明確分界線的這種觀點。

There's a clear cut end sometime early in life,

在生命早期的某個時刻，一切就已經有了明確的結局。

after which you're no longer able to attain what they call native-like proficiency any longer.

之後你就再也無法達到他們所說的接近母語者的水平了。

So yeah, the window of opportunity has closed.

所以說，機會的視窗已經關閉了。

So the key word there is really discontinuity, right?

所以這裡的關鍵詞其實是不連續性，對吧？

There's a threshold

存在一個閾值。

at some point like a cliff if you want um

比如在某個像懸崖一樣的地方，如果你願意的話。

which is very different i'd like to emphasize

我想強調的是，這兩者截然不同。

that from uh just general age-related differences

這只是與年齡相關的普遍差異造成的。

that we describe in our research you know for example the observation

我們在研究中所描述的，比如那些觀察結果。

that in certain contexts earlier is better

在某些情況下，越早越好。

when it comes to language learning that's very different

說到語言學習，情況就大不相同了。

that does not imply that there's a a cutoff

這並不意味著存在一個臨界閾值。

or a sort of a bend in the proficiency age function

或者說，是熟練度與年齡函式曲線中的一個拐點

so that is one assumption there's discontinuity and the second assumption

所以這是一個假設，即存在不連續性，而第二個假設是

that this hypothesis makes is

這個假設提出的是

that all the learners within the critical period they should be

所有處於關鍵期內的學習者都應當

capable of perfect native-like l2 mastery irrespective of their first language

無論第一語言是什麼，都有能力達到近乎母語者的第二語言完美掌握水平

and everybody outside of a critical period should fail to gain native-like mastery

而處於關鍵期之外的所有人，都無法達到接近母語者的掌握水平。

and you can probably already sense that there's a couple of issues with

你可能已經察覺到這裡存在幾個問題了

that one is that for decades scholars have tried to find the end of that critical period.

其中一個觀點是，幾十年來學者們一直試圖找到那個關鍵期的終點。

For Lyme-wage and humans, originally, I think in the 50s, Penfield and Roberts and Lenneberg,

關於萊姆病相關研究與人類認知，我記得最初是在50年代，由Penfield、Roberts和Lenneberg開展的。

who devised the critical period hypothesis, they said it's age nine, around age nine, or 12,

是誰提出了關鍵期假說？他們說是九歲，大約九歲，或者十二歲。

the onset of puberty, because they said that is when the brain becomes, and he said, increasingly stiff and rigid.

青春期的開始，因為他們說大腦正是在這個時期，他接著說，變得越來越僵化、越來越固定。

But as I've just said, that is no longer in line with current neurobiological wisdom.

但正如我剛才所說，這已經不符合當前神經生物學的主流觀點了。

So it's been super difficult to find that cutoff.

所以要找到那個截止點一直特別困難。

Scholars, there's assumptions that range from, I think, one year of age all the way through the end of adolescence.

學者們提出的假設範圍，我認為從一歲一直延伸到青春期結束。

You find everything.

你什麼都能找到。

It's so hard to model thresholds in my field and to say for all individuals,

在我所在的領域，要建立閾值模型並適用於所有個體實在是太難了。

this is the age after which this or that happens.

這是發生某件事的年齡門檻。

Um, so that is one issue.

嗯，所以這是一個問題。

And the other issue is, I mean, what is native likeness?

另一個問題是，我是說，什麼是母語相似度？

I mean, how do you define that?

我的意思是，你是怎麼定義這個的？

How do you measure that?

你是怎麼測量那個的？

Um, and also how can,

嗯，還有怎麼才能……

or, or can monolingual native likeness be found in multilinguals at all?

或者說，在多語言者身上究竟能否找到與單語母語者相似的語言表現？

Is that possible or such as an impossible benchmark?

這有可能實現嗎，還是說這是一個根本無法達到的基準？

And so empirically speaking, it's been super difficult to verify or falsify the critical period hypothesis.

因此從經驗層面來看，要驗證或證偽關鍵期假說一直非常困難。

So like I said, the current consensus is that there is no standard age at which things change drastically.

就像我之前說的，目前大家普遍認為，並沒有一個固定的年齡會讓情況發生劇烈變化。

That's pretty encouraging because I get a lot of questions of people asking, you know, you know, I'm 50, I'm 60, maybe even beyond.

這非常鼓舞人心，因為我經常收到人們的提問，他們說，你知道，我50歲了，60歲了，甚至年紀更大了。

Is it possible for me to learn a language?

我有可能學會一門語言嗎？

And even, you know, people younger in their 20s and their 30s, just thinking that, you know,

甚至，你知道，那些二十多歲、三十多歲的年輕人，他們只是覺得，你知道，

I'm not old, but I'm past that quote unquote critical period and so is it too late.

我年紀不算大，但已經過了所謂的關鍵期，那是不是就太晚了？

But then why is it that when I see kids and they don't need to put any work in, well, at least it looks like it,

但為什麼當我看到那些孩子時，他們似乎完全不需要付出任何努力，至少表面上看起來是這樣，

and they just sort of absorb the language and they end up, even if it's their second language, they end up speaking like a native speaker, especially in terms of accent,

他們會自然而然地吸收這門語言，最終即便這是他們的第二語言，說起話來也會像母語者一樣，在口音方面尤其如此。

whereas for adults it seems to be, well, not really the case in most cases.

而對於成年人來說，在大多數情況下情況似乎並非如此。

In general, there are obviously

總的來說，顯然存在

differences in how how we learn or we learn languages differently at different ages and

我們在不同年齡階段的學習方式存在差異，語言學習的方式也會隨年齡而變化，並且

that also motivates different pedagogical approaches right children even in schools not even in a naturalistic setting they learn languages

這也激發了不同的教學方法，對吧？即使是在學校裡，而不是在自然的語言環境中，孩子們也能學習語言。

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and languages are being taught very differently um compared to how we adolescent

語言教學的方式與我們青少年時期的學習方式大不相同。

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so that makes perfect sense and also i mean as you go through life, the environments also in which we learn also change, right?

這完全說得通，而且我的意思是，隨著人生的推進，我們學習所處的環境也會發生變化，不是嗎？

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So once you no longer have to go to school,

所以一旦你不用再上學了，

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for example, you may start learning additional languages in more informal environments and less so in all programs.

例如，你可能會在更非正式的環境中開始學習其他語言，而在各類課程專案中學習的情況則會相對較少。

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You may meet a significant other who speaks another language.

你可能會遇到一位說另一種語言的重要伴侶。

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So the environments change.

所以環境會發生變化。

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And then I think we also generally, we keep adapting our ideas about what we want to do

而且我覺得總的來說，我們也一直在不斷調整自己對於想要做的事情的想法。

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and learn in life as we as we get older and

隨著年齡增長，我們在生活中不斷學習。

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so things keep changing naturally and so it makes sense

所以事物會自然地不斷變化，這是很合理的。

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that there's many learning contexts where yes children are clearly at an advantage

在許多學習場景中，兒童顯然處於優勢地位。

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when they acquire additional language there's a lot of immigrant studies for example

例如，當他們掌握另一門語言時，有很多關於移民的研究。

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that carried out or collected data in so-called naturalistic learning contexts.

這些研究是在所謂的自然主義學習環境中開展或收集資料的。

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For example, if a family moves to another country and you observe and you document

例如，如果一個家庭搬到另一個國家，你進行觀察並記錄

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the progress that they make when it comes to language learning, and very often we find that the children outperform younger starters,

他們在語言學習方面取得的進步，而且我們經常發現，這些孩子的表現比更早開始學習的孩子更好。

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outperform older starters, right?

效能優於舊款啟動器，對吧？

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In the long run, definitely.

從長遠來看，肯定是這樣。

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Um, not across all domains though.

不過，並非在所有領域都是如此。

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I mean, it's a little more nuanced.

我的意思是，情況要更微妙一些。

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I mean, there are domains of language that are a little more susceptible to age effects.

我的意思是，有些語言領域受年齡影響的程度會更大一些。

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For example, pronunciation is very vulnerable age effects.

例如，發音很容易受到年齡效應的影響。

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Um, so foreign accent, um, whereas lexical semantics, vocabulary is a little less vulnerable to age effects.

嗯，所以會有外國口音，而詞彙語義、詞彙方面受年齡影響的程度要小一些。

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So this is not a sort of an all size fits all.

所以這並不是一種放之四海而皆準的方案。

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But yes, I mean, earlier is better in a naturalistic setting.

不過沒錯，我的意思是，在自然場景下，越早越好。

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Now the question is, and you've just asked it,

現在問題來了，而你剛剛已經提出了這個問題，

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the million dollar question is why children outperform older starters in those settings?

關鍵問題在於，為什麼在這些學習環境中，兒童的表現會優於成年後才開始學習的人？

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Because there's a variety of possibilities.

因為存在多種可能性。

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The first one that usually comes to mind is some kind of cognitive or neurobiological advantages, right?

人們首先想到的通常是某種認知或神經生物學上的優勢，對吧？

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As we are affected by what we call cognitive decline and cognitive decline sets in gradually

當我們受到所謂的認知衰退影響，而認知衰退是逐漸發生的

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in young adulthood and affects cognitive functions that are necessary or that are in part necessary for language acquisition.

在青年期發病，會影響語言習得所必需或部分必需的認知功能。

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Parts of working capacity, for example,

工作能力的組成部分，例如

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or information processing or recalling new information,

或資訊處理，或回憶新資訊，

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processing speed and so on.

處理速度等。

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And those start declining, yes, gradually in early adulthood something that children are not affected by.

這些能力確實會在成年早期逐漸開始衰退，而兒童並不會受到影響。

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Right.

對。

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And so that's possibly one reason.

所以這可能是其中一個原因。

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I would say there's also a ton of what we call age-related circumstances that they profit from.

我想說，還有大量我們所說的與年齡相關的情況，他們從中獲利。

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So if you think about a family that moves to another country, the children ideally may go to school

所以，如果你設想一個移居到另一個國家的家庭，理想情況下孩子們會去上學。

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and in a school setting they're immersed fully immersed in the

在學校環境中，他們完全沉浸在……

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target culture right um they're they make new friends um they have regular

目標文化，對，嗯，他們會結交新朋友，嗯，他們有固定的……

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and rich interactions with a variety of target speakers um children

以及與各種目標說話者，比如兒童，的豐富互動。

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also have very positive attitudes to learning new things they're they're generally speaking, relatively risk taking.

他們對學習新事物也抱有非常積極的態度，一般來說，他們相對敢於冒險。

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They usually have greater commitment of time or energy than adults.

他們通常比成年人投入更多的時間或精力。

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They may have a greater support system like teachers and parents or caregivers or older siblings that support them.

他們可能擁有更完善的支援體系，比如老師、父母、看護人或哥哥姐姐的支援。

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And those are all what we call, those are optimal L2 learning conditions, if you think about it,

仔細想想，這些就是我們所說的最理想的第二語言學習條件。

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and those are all that are equally important as cognitive.

而這些都與認知能力同等重要。

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factors and if you think of adults then or their caregivers for an adult immigrant

相關因素，以及如果你考慮成年移民群體，或是他們的照護者的情況。

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their main social network may involve people from their own ethnolinguistic group

他們的主要社交網路可能由來自同一民族語言群體的人組成。

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and that's it right and they may have you

就是這樣，對吧，他們可能已經抓住你了。

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or maybe no native speaking colleagues at work

或者可能是工作中沒有母語為該語言的同事

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so their learning conditions may be far from ideal

因此他們的學習條件可能遠非理想。

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so the question really is

所以問題實際上是

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if adults had similar optimal l2 learning conditions would they do

如果成年人擁有類似的第二語言學習最佳條件，他們是否也能做到

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equally well you know what i mean what is what is more important the cognitive side of the story

同樣，你明白我的意思，更重要的是這件事的認知層面。

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or everything that comes with age all the age-related circumstances

或是所有隨年齡增長而來的事物，所有與年齡相關的狀況

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super hard to tease those two apart

很難把那兩個區分開來。

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but those are those are some of the reasons why in

但這些就是其中一些原因

156

some contexts yeah earlier is better there's a ton of context so where that um assumption does not hold empirically.

在某些情況下，是的，越早越好，但有很多背景情況表明，這種假設在實際中並不成立。

157

For example, if we take immersive home settings, home environments, if children grow up multilingual,

例如，以沉浸式家庭環境為例，如果孩子在多語言環境中長大，

158

this is something here in Europe that has become very common, right?

這在歐洲已經變得非常普遍了，對吧？

159

That children are being raised multilingually.

孩子們正在接受多語言成長環境的培養。

160

And parents keep asking us, what's the recipe?

家長們一直問我們，秘訣是什麼？

161

What can I do, right?

我能怎麼辦呢，是吧？

162

What are the factors that guarantee a multilingual outcome?

保障多語言成果的因素有哪些？

163

And there we sometimes do find age effects and sometimes we don't.

在這方面，我們有時確實會發現年齡效應，有時則不會。

164

Sometimes a little older, if you start acquiring the second language a little older, it's not necessarily a disadvantage because older children,

有時候年齡稍大一些，如果你在年齡稍大時才開始學習第二語言，這未必是劣勢，因為年齡較大的孩子

165

say a six-year-old, can profit from increased cognitive maturity.

比如說一個六歲的孩子，就能從認知能力的進一步成熟中獲益。

166

And that basically means that certain cognitive functions are further developed.

這基本上意味著某些認知功能得到了進一步的發展。

167

The same functions that I've just mentioned, working memory capacity, abstract reasoning, executive control.

我剛才提到的那些能力，包括工作記憶容量、抽象推理能力和執行控制能力。

168

And those are important for language learning.

這些對語言學習來說非常重要。

169

So they may be better developed or further developed.

因此它們可能得到更好的開發或進一步的發展。

170

An older child may also have a good basis in their first language.

年齡較大的兒童在母語方面也可能已經具備良好的基礎。

171

You can profit from that.

你可以從中獲利。

172

When it comes to additional language learning, literacy skills is one that comes to mind, reading and writing abilities.

談到外語學習時，人們首先想到的往往是讀寫能力這類語言文化技能。

173

And so we usually tell those parents, even the absolute earliest possible start.

因此，我們通常會告訴那些家長，越早開始越好。

174

So birth does not guarantee a bilingual outcome.

因此，出生環境並不能保證孩子最終能掌握雙語。

175

There are bilingual children who are exposed to two or more languages from birth.

有些雙語兒童從出生起就接觸兩種或兩種以上的語言。

176

And they absolutely grow up, you know, to become productive multilinguals with varying proficiencies in their languages, but still fairly productive.

而且他們長大後，確實會成為具備不同語言水平、能熟練使用多種語言的人，整體來說語言能力相當出色。

177

And then others only develop receptive skills in one of their languages.

還有一些人只在他們掌握的某一種語言上發展出了接收性語言技能。

178

And yet others completely attrite, meaning their knowledge stagnates, fossilizes,

還有一些人則完全停滯不前，也就是說他們的知識會停滯、僵化。

179

and then they no longer use the language at all.

之後他們就完全不再使用這門語言了。

180

and they're not being encouraged to use it by their caregivers for whatever reason.

而且由於種種原因，他們的看護者並沒有鼓勵他們使用它。

181

And so that's a very common scenario.

所以這是一個非常常見的場景。

182

So there, age plays a role, but the evidence is mixed, and then you have classroom settings.

所以在這方面，年齡確實有影響，但相關證據並不一致，而且還要考慮課堂環境的因素。

183

That's the third.

這是第三個了。

184

Learning context where earlier is better, that assumption doesn't really stand up empirically, interestingly.

在學習情境中，人們普遍認為越早開始越好，但有趣的是，這一假設在實證層面其實站不住腳。

185

I want to talk a little bit more about cognitive decline, but first, yeah, you talked about these, you know, bilingual schools.

我想再深入聊一聊認知衰退的話題，但首先，你之前提到了那些雙語學校。

186

These types of schools are pretty expensive, usually like, you know, college level sort of tuition fees.

這類學校的學費相當貴，通常差不多是大學級別的學費水平。

187

Do you think it's worth it at all?

你覺得這到底值不值得？

188

Yes, I do.

是的，我願意。

189

I actually do.

190

I think this is one of the contexts where we find beautiful

我覺得這正是我們能發現美好的場景之一。

191

starting age effects because the language is really it's not

起始年齡效應的產生，是因為語言本身實際上並非如此。

192

so much about learning an additional language that's not

學習一門額外語言的意義遠不止於此

193

so much about language learning it's more about using the language as a means of communication to do something else

語言學習的重點並不在於語言本身，而在於將語言作為一種溝通工具，去完成其他事情。

194

and that's a very authentic way of using the second language

這是一種非常地道的使用第二語言的方式。

195

so you may use it for example to do math or biology right

所以你可以用它來做數學或者生物題，對吧？

196

So it's not so much about grammar or vocabulary or accuracy, fluency, complexity.

所以這與其說是關於語法、詞彙、準確性、流利度或複雜度的問題。

197

It's about math or biology just through another language.

這只不過是通過另一種語言來學習數學或生物學而已。

198

It's a means of communication.

這是一種溝通方式。

199

And of course, also the intensity of language exposure is great in bilingual schools.

當然，雙語學校的語言接觸強度也很高。

200

And high intensity instruction, we know that promotes the continuous activation, processing and consolidation of linguistic structures.

我們知道，高強度的教學能夠促進語言結構的持續啟用、加工和鞏固。

201

So it's interesting in second language acquisition, it is not so much about the length of study in years or in instructional hours.

有趣的是，在第二語言習得領域，學習效果並不太取決於學習的年數或授課時長。

202

It's more about intensity and how condensed those hours are blocked.

這更多關乎的是工作強度，以及這些時間段的安排有多緊湊。

203

That for some reason is a lot more effective.

不知為何，那樣效果要好得多。

204

Really?

205

Okay.

206

And so that's what happens, right?

事情就是這樣，對吧？

207

In bilingual schools, it's super, super intense.

在雙語學校裡，競爭非常非常激烈。

208

It minimizes also the impact of forgetting and interference because you are continuously focused on the target language without constant breaks.

它還能減少遺忘和干擾帶來的影響，因為你可以持續專注於目標語言，而不會頻繁中斷。

209

It really simulates, you know, it's a form of immersion really.

它真的能帶來模擬感，你知道的，這其實是一種沉浸式體驗。

210

It's like a naturalistic setting.

這就像是一個自然主義風格的場景。

211

It's very authentic.

這非常正宗。

212

And yeah, no, it's there's usually, usually those students make great progress, but as As you rightly pointed out,

是的，通常這些學生都會取得很大的進步，但正如你正確指出的，

213

those schools are incredibly expensive also here in Switzerland, and they're usually not state funded.

在瑞士，那些學校的學費也高得離譜，而且通常不是由政府資助的。

214

They're private schools.

它們是私立學校。

215

So we are trying to promote them because when it comes to early foreign language learning, this is the approach.

所以我們正努力推廣這些方法，因為談到早期外語學習時，這就是正確的途徑。

216

This intensive, immersive approach works really well, particularly with young learners.

這種高強度、沉浸式的教學方法效果非常好，尤其適合低齡學習者。

217

Yeah, you talked about something I wanted to talk a little bit more about, then we'll move on to cognitive decline.

是的，你剛才提到了我想進一步探討的話題，之後我們再討論認知衰退的問題。

218

But you said that intensity potentially is more important than the total length of studying.

但你之前說過，學習的專注度可能比總學習時長更重要。

219

And this is something I've been sort of suspecting for a long time.

這是我很長一段時間以來一直隱約有所懷疑的事。

220

It seems to me that really going all in on the language, even for a limited amount of time,

在我看來，全身心投入學習這門語言，哪怕只是一段有限的時間，

221

seems to have a sort of exponential effects on your ability.

似乎會對你的能力產生某種指數級的影響。

222

do you think that is?

你覺得那是什麼？

223

It's just that you're getting exposed to the same stuff at, I don't know, it's like a frequency that is good for memorization or I don't know.

只是你一直在接觸相同的內容，我也說不好，就像是一種有助於記憶的頻率，我也不確定。

224

Yeah, yeah, you're, you benefit from, I mean, obviously there's increased input, output and room for interaction.

是的，是的，你會從中受益，我的意思是，顯然輸入、輸出和互動空間都增加了。

225

That's always good.

那總歸是件好事。

226

And you just benefit from being exposed to a higher frequency and density of linguistic input over shorter periods,

而且你只需在更短的時間內接觸到更高頻率和密度的語言輸入，就能從中受益。

227

rather than receiving the same amount of input distributed over a longer period of time.

而不是在更長的時間段內接收等量的輸入。

228

It's also motivating because you can tell you're making progress, right?

這也很有激勵作用，因為你能感覺到自己在進步，對吧？

229

And sometimes this drip feed approach, you know, if you have one or two instructional hours per week in primary school,

而且有時候這種循序漸進的教學方式，你知道的，如果小學每週只有一兩個課時的話，

230

sometimes students report that they find this frustrating that they're not really making a lot of progress.

有時學生們會說，他們發現自己並沒有取得太大進展，這讓他們感到很沮喪。

231

But of course, you can't just add instructional hours to the primary school curriculum.

但當然，你不能只是簡單地在小學課程中增加教學時長。

232

That doesn't, it doesn't work like that.

不是這樣的，事情不是那樣運作的。

233

And so that's a nice compromise, right, to teach school subjects in the target language, or at least some of them.

所以這是一個很好的折中方案，對吧？用目標語言教授學校科目，或者至少是其中一些科目。

234

And yeah, you have a sense of progress, achievement, you don't have the constant breaks, there's less room for interference from other languages,

是的，你會有一種進步感和成就感，不會被頻繁打斷，其他語言的干擾也會更少。

235

because you're really focused on one language without constantly switching to.

因為你真正專注於一種語言，而不需要不斷切換到其他語言。

236

Yeah, it minimizes the impact of forgetting, interference.

是的，它能將遺忘和干擾的影響降到最低。

237

It's just, it's a peculiarity of language learning that intensity works so well.

語言學習有一個特別之處，就是高強度的學習效果往往非常好。

238

But it's been shown, I mean, bilingual programs are incredibly successful.

但事實已經證明，我的意思是，雙語教學專案的成效非常顯著。

239

And talking about cognitive decline, you said that this may be a factor when learning a language,

說到認知能力下降，你之前說過這可能是學習語言時的一個影響因素，

240

but I'm wondering how much of a factor is it?

但我想知道這到底有多大影響？

241

Specifically, you know, when your early adulthood?

具體來說，你是指剛成年那段時期嗎？

242

Is it a factor at all or is it something that we can just neglect and then in, let's say, in your 50s and then later on in your 70s or 80s?

這到底是不是一個需要考慮的因素，還是說我們完全可以忽略它，等到比如50多歲，再到後來70或80多歲的時候再考慮？

243

It's not, I mean, it's not something that you notice drastically or dramatically in your 20s and 30s.

我的意思是，在二三十歲的時候，你並不會明顯地察覺到這種變化。

244

It's definitely something that I experience now a little when I start learning a new language from scratch.

當我開始從零學習一門新語言時，我現在確實會有一點這樣的感受。

245

It is one piece of the puzzle, I would say also in older adults, like you said, 50 or 60 or 70.

我想說，這是其中的一個關鍵部分，同樣適用於老年人，就像你提到的，50歲、60歲或70歲的人群。

246

I mean, age-related cognitive decline is a thing.

我的意思是，與年齡相關的認知衰退確實是存在的。

247

And these cognitive functions that are known to decline across the lifespan, they're important predictors of second language learning,

而這些已知會隨著年齡增長而衰退的認知功能，是預測第二語言學習能力的重要指標。

248

but yeah, they're on a piece of the puzzle.

不過沒錯，他們已經找到了一些線索。

249

There's other skills that also decline, that have an impact on language learning.

還有其他一些能力也會下降，這些能力會對語言學習產生影響。

250

And a big one is hearing ability.

其中一個重要因素是聽力能力。

251

That declines in a lot of individuals.

很多人的這一能力都會衰退。

252

That's also a common phenomenon and hearing is the key to language too, right?

這也是一個很常見的現象，而且聽力也是語言學習的關鍵，對吧？

253

And language is the key to communication and communication is the key to social participation.

語言是溝通的關鍵，而溝通是社會參與的關鍵。

254

And so there's that whole chain.

所以整個鏈條就是這樣的。

255

Visual acuity may also decline.

視力也可能會下降。

256

And so information about orthography, phonology seems to become more difficult to access with increasing age.

因此，隨著年齡增長，人們獲取正字法和音系學相關資訊似乎變得更加困難。

257

So that is a thing, you know, that's not something we can sugarcoat.

這就是現實，我們沒法粉飾太平。

258

However, there's also a ton of skills that either remain stable across the lifespan or the evening proof.

然而，也有大量技能要麼在整個生命週期中保持穩定，要麼經得起時間的考驗。

259

So adults also have a lot of advantages when it comes to, for example, what they call crystallized intelligence.

成年人在所謂的晶體智力方面也有很多優勢。

260

That's vocabulary, accumulated knowledge, analytic abilities,

那是詞彙量、積累的知識、分析能力。

261

pragmatic skills, knowledge of the world,

實用技能、世界認知、

262

human behavior, and then also better understanding of the various registers and styles of language.

人類行為，同時也能更好地理解各種語域和語言風格。

263

adults, we always find are really experienced and self-directed learners.

我們發現成年人往往是經驗豐富且自主的學習者。

264

That helps a lot.

這幫了大忙了。

265

So the interesting question really is for us, which aspects of cognition are most important for different linguistic tasks

所以對我們來說，真正有趣的問題是，哪些認知層面對不同的語言任務最為重要。

266

or to what extent can weaknesses in one area be compensated for, you know, with strength in another?

或者說，一個領域的不足能在多大程度上被另一個領域的優勢所彌補？

267

And there's only a few lifespan studies and most of them are not longitudinal in need, cross-sectional.

目前關於壽命的研究為數不多，而且其中大多數並非縱向研究，而是橫斷面研究。

268

Raphael Berthel in Switzerland carried out one of them about 10 or 15 years ago,

瑞士的拉斐爾·貝特爾大約在10到15年前開展了其中一項研究。

269

where they taught an artificial language to, it was over 150 participants who were between 10 and 86 years old.

他們在那裡教授一種人工語言，參與人數超過150人，年齡從10歲到86歲不等。

270

So they covered the entire lifespan.

所以它們涵蓋了整個生命週期。

271

And it was so surprising that they found that for most of the language skills, artificial language skills that they tested,

令人驚訝的是，他們發現，在大多數他們測試的語言技能，也就是人工語言技能方面，

272

they found that older is not a disadvantage.

他們發現年齡較大並不是劣勢。

273

There were very few age-related differences in general.

總體而言，與年齡相關的差異非常少。

274

And whenever there were age-related differences, they were in favor of older.

每當出現與年齡相關的差異時，這些差異都對年長者有利。

275

They tested everything from vocabulary learning to pragmatic skills, a phonotactic rule learning.

他們測試了從詞彙學習到語用技能，再到音位配列規則學習的各項內容。

276

And yeah, they found relatively few age-related differences.

而且，他們發現與年齡相關的差異相對較少。

277

And that's really nice.

這真的很棒。

278

And it's surprising, right?

這真讓人驚訝，對吧？

279

Because, you know, with ageist stereotypes that are very common, it's not something that we anticipate, I guess.

因為，你知道，在非常普遍的年齡歧視刻板印象下，我想這不是我們會預料到的事情。

280

As an adult learning a language potentially from scratch, how can I take advantage of these potential advantages

作為一名可能從零開始學習一門語言的成年人，我該如何利用這些潛在優勢？

281

that I have as an adult when learning this language compared to a child?

我作為成年人學習這門語言時，和孩子相比會有哪些不同？

282

We have to make the best of what we still have or the knowledge that has kept improving over the lifespan.

我們必須充分利用我們仍然擁有的一切，以及在一生中不斷積累提升的知識。

283

So we can draw on a wealth of experience and accumulated knowledge.

因此，我們可以借鑑豐富的經驗和積累的知識。

284

So that means that whenever we teach adults, older adults or middle-aged adults,

這意味著，每當我們教授成年人、年長的成年人或者中年成年人時，

285

we say that learning should build on what people already know.

我們認為學習應當建立在人們已有的知識基礎之上。

286

So you try and connect new information to previous knowledge and

所以你會嘗試將新資訊與已有的知識聯絡起來

287

that can make it easier to form new connections and understand new concepts.

這能讓我們更容易建立新的關聯、理解新的概念。

288

So that is an important one.

所以這一點很重要。

289

When it comes to hearing ability that we know the clients with age,

說到聽力能力，我們知道隨著年齡增長的客戶群體，

290

we use plenty of visual material or more visual material with older adults and younger adults or children,

我們會大量使用視覺材料，或者說在與老年人、年輕人或兒童交流時會使用更多的視覺材料。

291

and lots of multimodal resources so that you encounter language in a variety of different contexts and not just,

還有大量多模態資源，讓你能在各種不同的語境中接觸語言，而不僅僅是……

292

you know, in a listening comprehension task, for example.

你知道，比如在聽力理解題裡。

293

And then a big one that I always,

還有一個我一直以來都很重視的重要點

294

always emphasizes chunking that is the learning of chunks those are multi-word sequences

始終強調組塊學習，也就是對由多個單片語成的序列組塊的學習。

295

that store like individual words like if you take frozen pizza out of the freezer okay

那個商店就像一個個獨立的詞，就好比你從冰箱裡拿出冷凍披薩那樣，懂吧。

296

the whole thing is already it's already prepared

所有東西都已經準備好了。

297

and you don't have to compose sentences from their parts they're already stored as a whole

你不需要把各個部分拼湊成句子，它們已經作為整體被儲存好了。

298

so for example i don't know i don't know as a chump

比如說，我真搞不懂，我才不當冤大頭呢。

299

that i don't have to compose from its parts i just access retrieve it as a whole and that really

我不需要從各個部分去拼湊，只需要直接獲取、調取它的整體，這真的很方便。

300

saves me a lot of time to produce it

這為我節省了大量製作時間。

301

and it also alleviates working memory strains on working memory capacity

同時它還能減輕工作記憶容量的負擔。

302

and that is something as i said before it's part of cognitive decline older Second language learners have limited working memory capacity.

而這正如我之前所說，是認知衰退的一部分。年長的第二語言學習者的工作記憶容量有限。

303

And so that has an impact on your ability to automatically process language.

因此，這會影響你自動處理語言的能力。

304

And yeah, for example, stringing together sentences from their parts

是的，比如說，把句子的各個部分組合起來。

305

and chunking is a nice way and to avoid this problem of composition.

而分塊是避免這種組合問題的一個好方法。

306

And so to not learn individual words in an isolated fashion,

因此，為了避免以孤立的方式學習單個單詞，

307

but entire chunks of language that you use in different communicative situations.

而是你在不同交際場景中使用的整段語言模組。

308

That works really well.

這個效果真的很好。

309

Also for very young learners who are not able to learn a language explicitly yet, you know, based on certain grammatical rules.

此外，對於那些還無法通過明確的語法規則來學習語言的低齡學習者來說，情況也是如此。

310

Amassing a corpus of chunks is a nice way to circumvent the age problem, I would say.

我認為，積累語塊庫是規避語料年代問題的一個好方法。

311

If you're too young to learn the language explicitly or to be too old.

如果你年紀太小還無法系統學習這門語言，或者年紀太大已經不適合學習。

312

Yes, so those are some of the recommendations that we usually make.

是的，這些就是我們通常會提出的一些建議。

313

Yeah, I have to say talking about chunks, I did a three-month challenge and I made extensive use of memorizing chunks,

是啊，說到語塊，我之前參加過一個為期三個月的挑戰，當時大量運用了語塊記憶的方法。

314

memorizing full sentences, even going beyond sort of small speeches that I knew I would probably use in my final test.

背誦完整的句子，甚至不止是那些我知道在期末考試中可能會用到的簡短表達。

315

And this was probably the biggest sort of contributor to my final fluency.

這很可能是我最終達到流利水平的最主要因素。

316

So how would you recommend that people learn these chunks and how should they sort of select these chunks?

那麼，你會建議人們如何學習這些語塊，又該如何選擇這些語塊呢？

317

Yeah, it's really difficult because there are so many of them and some of them are really infrequent.

是的，這確實很困難，因為這類情況太多了，而且有些發生的頻率非常低。

318

Not all of them are frequent, I don't know.

並不是所有情況都經常發生，我也不太確定。

319

And so that's a difficult one because we usually pick them up in naturalistic context in the target language culture.

這一點很難，因為我們通常是在目標語言文化的自然語境中習得這些表達的。

320

It's not necessarily something that you can learn explicitly in a course book for example.

例如，這不一定是你能在教科書裡明確學到的東西。

321

Also in a classroom setting, with a few instructional hours per week, you can only learn so many chunks.

而且在課堂教學環境下，每週只有幾小時的授課時間，你能學到的語塊數量是有限的。

322

So this is something that you have to pick up in your free time through reading,

所以這是你必須在空閒時間通過閱讀來掌握的東西。

323

through any kind of input that rocks your boat,

通過任何能讓你感興趣的方式輸入

324

be that, you know, YouTube videos in the target language or computer games or social media.

比如目標語言的YouTube影片、電腦遊戲或者社交媒體。

325

If it's English, that is the target language.

如果是英語，那就是目標語言。

326

That's really easy for us, right?

這對我們來說真的很容易，不是嗎？

327

Because it's everywhere.

因為它無處不在。

328

When it comes to other second languages, it's a little more difficult.

說到其他第二語言，情況就會稍微困難一些。

329

but anything that appeals to you is great input and so chunks are really picked up via

但任何能引起你興趣的內容都是很好的輸入，所以語塊實際上是通過……被吸收掌握的。

330

via input and via interaction with target language speakers that's another big one

通過語言輸入以及與目標語言使用者的互動，這是另一個重要的方面。

331

because that's when you realize oh this is not how you say it it's not grammatically incorrect So for example,

因為那時你才會意識到，哦，原來不是這麼說的，這並不是語法錯誤，比如說，

332

if you say when you greet somebody and you say,

如果你在和別人打招呼時說，

333

hi, how's your health today?

嗨，你今天身體怎麼樣？

334

Okay.

335

Nobody says that it's not wrong.

沒人說這沒有錯。

336

It's not grammatically wrong.

這在語法上並沒有錯誤。

337

It's not lexically wrong.

從詞彙角度來說這並沒有錯。

338

You may pronounce it beautifully.

你可以把它讀得很優美。

339

Yeah, but it's just not what you say.

是啊，但問題根本就不在於你說了什麼。

340

Okay.

341

You say, Hey, how are you?

你說，嘿，你好嗎？

342

And then you go on and how do you learn that?

然後你繼續問，那你是怎麼學會的？

343

Well, you pick it up by doing it find yourself in the situation

嗯，你是通過親身實踐來掌握的，讓自己置身於那種情境之中。

344

and you realize the interlocutor is confused if I used the wrong chunk

如果你用錯了語塊，你就會意識到對話物件感到困惑。

345

and yeah you get you're fully immersed and that's how you pick them up

是的，你會完全沉浸其中，這就是你掌握它們的方式。

346

so there's usually no way around yeah using either authentic materials or participating in online communities

所以通常來說，我們別無選擇，只能使用真實的語言材料或者參與線上社群。

347

anywhere where you can interact, because a lot of them are really deeply rooted also in culture

任何你可以進行互動的地方，因為其中很多都深深植根於文化之中。

348

and second language acquisition essentially is always also second culture acquisition.

而第二語言習得本質上也始終是第二文化的習得。

349

I want to ask a question that's you know now on

我想問一個現在正在討論的問題

350

the language learning internet let's say there are movements like something

語言學習的網際網路領域，我們可以說存在著一些類似的發展動向。

351

called ALG automatic language growth it's an approach to an approach to learning languages, which states that, you know,

名為ALG自動語言增長，這是一種語言學習方法，它指出，你知道的，

352

you should just get input.

你直接獲取輸入就好。

353

A lot of it, that's the optimal way to get to go about it.

很多時候，這才是處理這件事的最佳方式。

354

You know, nothing else really matters.

你知道的，其他一切其實都不重要。

355

Just get input.

只需獲取輸入即可。

356

Do you think this is a valid approach for learning languages?

你覺得這是一種有效的語言學習方法嗎？

357

No, I mean, obviously, input is important.

不，我的意思是，顯然，輸入很重要。

358

And the more, the better, definitely.

而且肯定是越多越好。

359

But I mean, there are studies that found that if you just place your child in front of, I don't know, Peppa Pig,

但我的意思是，有研究發現，如果你只是把孩子放在電視機前看《小豬佩奇》之類的節目，

360

their language learning outcomes are surprisingly disappointing.

他們的語言學習成果卻出人意料地令人失望。

361

Although Peppa Pig is super motivating, it definitely catches the child's attention.

雖然《小豬佩奇》非常吸引人，但它確實能抓住孩子的注意力。

362

So that's not the problem.

所以問題不在這兒。

363

You can also play it for several hours on end.

你也可以連續玩好幾個小時。

364

So massive input, intensive input, and yet they pick up surprisingly little.

輸入量如此之大，訓練強度如此之高，可它們學到的東西卻少得驚人。

365

And actually, theoretically speaking, if you place that much emphasis on input, this should work pretty well.

實際上，從理論上講，如果你如此重視輸入，這應該會效果很好。

366

And it does not.

事實也的確如此。

367

Input alone is just one third of the battle.

368

The other third is output.

另外三分之一是產出。

369

You need opportunities to practice.

你需要機會去練習。

370

you need opportunities to practice because right now that I'm, when I, when I listen to you right now that you're listening to me,

你需要練習的機會，因為現在我聽你說話，還有你聽我說話的時候，

371

you're being relatively lazy, cognitively speaking.

從認知角度來說，你現在有點犯懶。

372

You don't necessarily engage in a lot of morphosyntactic processing.

你不一定會進行大量的形態句法處理。

373

You go straight for a meeting.

你直接去開會。

374

You try to understand what I say.

你試著理解我在說什麼。

375

You go for content words, right?

你是找實詞的對吧？

376

You may fill in the gaps.

你可以填寫這些空白。

377

You may do some inferencing, but you don't do a lot of morphosyntactic processing.

你可能會進行一些推理，但不會進行大量的形態句法處理。

378

As soon as you respond to me you have to do

你一回復我就必須去做。

379

the work right you can't just start dropping lopping off endings um

這活兒可不能隨便就開始亂砍亂截啊

380

or just you know omitting prepositions you have to actually pay attention to every single linguistic detail

或者說，就像你知道的那樣，省略介詞的時候，你必須真正注意每一個語言細節。

381

and yeah you have to walk the walk so output is important

而且沒錯，你必須言行一致，所以成果才是關鍵。

382

and the third is interaction you have have to interact with other speakers of the target language.

第三點是互動，你必須與目標語言的其他使用者進行交流。

383

And interestingly, and I really like that finding your interlocutor doesn't need to have a really high proficiency level.

有趣的是，我非常認同這一點：你的對話夥伴並不需要具備非常高的語言水平。

384

You can always learn your interlocutor because they don't have the same proficiency level.

你總能從對話者身上學到東西，因為他們的語言水平和你並不相同。

385

Right?

386

And so just by interacting with each other, you constantly get feedback, right?

所以僅僅通過相互交流，你就能不斷獲得反饋，對吧？

387

Right now that I'm talking to you, I can see when you're frowning and then I may, you know, reformulate what I said or I may rephrase it.

現在我和你說話的時候，我能看到你什麼時候皺眉頭，然後我可能會重新組織我說的話，或者換一種說法。

388

Or you may want me to clarify something if I'm not being clear.

如果我表達得不夠清楚，你也可以讓我進一步說明。

389

So if I start producing errors and that may lead to communication breakdowns, it may lead to you asking me or asking me to clarify.

所以如果我開始出現錯誤，可能會導致溝通中斷，可能會讓你要求我或者要求我澄清。

390

Can you see that again?

你能再看一遍嗎？

391

What do you mean by that?

你這話是什麼意思？

392

And that makes me aware of the fact that there's a problem in what I said.

這讓我意識到我剛才說的話裡存在一個問題。

393

I have to find the locus of the problem and have to fix it.

我得找出這個問題的根源並加以解決。

394

And then you may ask me again, no, say that again, say that again.

然後你可能會再問我，不對，再說一遍，再說一遍。

395

I have to re keep repairing what I say.

我老是得反覆修正自己說過的話。

396

And that's how you learn.

你就是這樣學習的。

397

That is very impressive.

這真是令人印象深刻。

398

If somebody else, yeah, because at the end of the day, you, you want to communicate, you want to be understood.

如果是其他人的話，是的，因為說到底，你是想要溝通，想要被理解。

399

And so feedback is incredibly powerful.

因此，反饋的力量是無比強大的。

400

And in a classroom setting,

而在課堂環境中，

401

of course, there's also corrective feedback where the teacher makes you aware of certain problems with accuracy or fluency.

當然，還有糾正性反饋，老師會通過這種方式讓你意識到自己在準確性或流利度方面存在的某些問題。

402

And then again, you have to fix it.

而且話說回來，你還得把它修好。

403

And so those are, those are the big three.

所以，這就是三大要點。

404

And I would not necessarily say that one is more important than the other.

我並不會說其中某一個就一定比另一個更重要。

405

And what about developing a good accent?

那要怎麼練就地道的口音呢？

406

Because, you know, kids, obviously, you know, generally speaking, if they're immersed in a language, they're going to develop a native-like accent,

因為，你知道，孩子們，很明顯，一般來說，如果他們沉浸在某種語言環境中，就會養成接近母語者的口音。

407

but for adults, it's a little bit more difficult.

但對成年人來說，難度會稍大一些。

408

Is it possible?

這有可能嗎？

409

And if so, what is the approach that we have to take?

如果是這樣的話，我們應該採取什麼樣的方法？

410

Yeah, we've moved a little bit away from that.

是的，我們已經稍微偏離了那個方向。

411

The idea that our accents have to be target-like or native-like, right?

有一種觀點認為，我們的口音必須接近目標語或者母語者的水平，對吧？

412

We also try not to use the word native-like.

我們也儘量不使用“接近母語者水平”這個詞。

413

Sort of the question, to what extent should we hold second language learners to this native speaker or monolingual benchmark, right?

這就引出了一個問題：我們究竟應該在多大程度上以母語者或單語者的標準來要求第二語言學習者？

414

And because for an absence, they're just a normal side product of being a multilingual person, right?

而且因為語誤只是掌握多種語言的人會產生的正常附帶現象，不是嗎？

415

But it's true that originally,

但確實最初，

416

I mean, classical second language acquisition research has also been all about differences between and similarities between native speakers and non-native speakers.

我的意思是，經典的第二語言習得研究也一直圍繞著母語者和非母語者之間的差異與相似之處展開。

417

And the goal was to become as native-like as possible or near native.

目標是達到儘可能接近母語者的水平，或者接近母語水平。

418

And we've drastically moved away from that.

而我們現在已經完全背離了這一點。

419

to sort of hold the native speaker as this ideal.

將母語者視為某種理想標準。

420

Because first of all, it's really difficult to define what a native speaker actually is.

首先，要定義什麼是真正的母語者其實非常困難。

421

Because there's so much variation within that group.

因為那個群體內部存在著非常多的差異。

422

So there's a ton of native speakers, but the native speaker is this idealization that is is kind of bizarre.

所以雖然有很多母語者，但“母語者”這個概念其實是一種理想化的設定，有點奇怪。

423

And then also cognitively speaking, I mean, as a multilingual person, I can't be the same as a monoling.

而且從認知層面來說，作為一個會多種語言的人，我和只會一種語言的人不可能一樣。

424

I can't cognitively speaking.

從認知層面來說，我做不到。

425

I'm not several monolinguals within one person.

我不是一個人身上裝著好幾個只會一種語言的人。

426

That's not possible.

這不可能。

427

The moment you're exposed to another language, cross-language interaction.

當你接觸到另一種語言時，跨語言互動就會發生。

428

That's completely normal.

這完全正常。

429

And so, yeah, makes no sense to strive for native speaker pronunciation, for example.

所以說，比如，一味追求母語者的發音其實毫無意義。

430

And there also shouldn't be a multilingual user's attainment shouldn't be the same as that of a monolingual native speaker,

而且多語言使用者的語言水平也不應該與單語母語者的水平完全相同。

431

because why should monolinguals be treated as ideal speakers of a language in this multilingual world?

在這個多語言的世界裡，憑什麼把只會說一種語言的人當成一門語言的理想使用者呢？

432

um makes no sense i think for an accent transfer interference they're not the sla devil incarnate

嗯，這說不通啊，我覺得只是口音遷移的干擾而已，他們又不是什麼十惡不赦的大壞蛋。

433

um right i mean i'm talking to you now i have an accent

嗯，對，我是說我現在跟你說話的時候是有口音的。

434

and i can hear it and that has to do with the fact

而且我能聽到聲音，這和實際情況是吻合的。

435

that my all of my background emojis interfere with my output and

我所有的背景表情符號都會干擾我的輸出，而且

436

there's not much i can do about that

對此我實在沒什麼辦法。

437

and i'm also not sure it should be the goal

而且我也不確定這應該成為目標。

438

so we've we've We've moved away from that and I would say in the last 10, 20 years, there have been calls

我們已經不再採用那種方式了，而且我想說，在過去的一二十年裡，一直有相關的呼聲。

439

to replace this research goal that explained or trying to explain why late multilinguals are not native speakers.

以取代此前旨在解釋或試圖解釋為何晚期多語言使用者無法達到母語水平的研究目標。

440

And we should more try and understand the process

我們應該更加努力去理解這個過程。

441

and the consequences of becoming multilingual and looking at multilinguals in their own right rather than in comparison with native speakers.

掌握多語言所帶來的影響，以及應當從多語言者本身的特質出發去研究他們，而非將其與母語者進行比較。

442

I want to sort of summarize this for a lot of our listeners who may be, you know, I don't know, in their 40s or 50s or even beyond.

我想給我們很多可能是四十多歲、五十多歲甚至年紀更大的聽眾簡單總結一下。

443

If you were, well, I guess you are a person in this age range, how would you go about learning a new language from scratch?

如果你正處於這個年齡段，你會如何從零開始學習一門新語言？

444

And what should you expect also in terms of, you know, realistic timeline for this age range,

另外，針對這個年齡段，你還應該對一個符合實際的時間範圍有怎樣的預期？

445

considering that, you know, you have a full time job and a family potentially?

考慮到你還有一份全職工作，可能還要照顧家庭？

446

It depends a little bit what your goal is, because there's a lot of different goals in second language acquisition.

這在一定程度上取決於你的目標，因為第二語言習得存在許多不同的目標。

447

Is it your goal to be able to use a couple of chunks

你的目標是能夠運用幾個語塊嗎

448

because you're going to travel to the target country in the near future?

是因為你近期打算前往目標國家旅行嗎？

449

Is the goal to raise awareness for other cultures and linguistic diversity in children,

其目標是提高兒童對其他文化和語言多樣性的認識嗎？

450

for example, and it's not so much about second language proficiency.

舉個例子，這其實和第二語言的熟練程度關係並不大。

451

Is the goal to be able to communicate with a significant other or their family?

學習的目標是能夠和伴侶或其家人溝通嗎？

452

What exactly is it that you want to achieve?

你究竟想要達成什麼目標？

453

And then it also depends a little bit on, yeah, your resources, how much time you have on your hands,

另外這也多少取決於你手頭的資源，以及你有多少時間。

454

and what learner style that you prefer,

以及你更偏好哪種學習風格？

455

For example, I can't really generally recommend learning apps if that's not something that works for you or you're not into that.

舉個例子，如果學習類應用不適合你或者你本身就不感興趣，我一般不會真的推薦這類應用。

456

For others, it works really well, right?

對其他人來說，這個效果真的很好，不是嗎？

457

Duolingo and whatever they're called.

多鄰國還有那些叫什麼來著的同類應用。

458

And using them on a daily basis, every day for a long period of time, that doesn't work for everybody.

長期每天都使用它們，這種方式並不適合所有人。

459

There are individuals who find they need to interact with other individuals

有些人發現自己需要與他人互動。

460

because language at the end of the day is a means of communication and they appreciate that.

歸根結底，語言是一種交流工具，他們很認同這一點。

461

So I would say, I mean, it's never too late.

所以我想說，我的意思是，什麼時候開始都不晚。

462

And you should find something that a way of learning that appeals to you.

你應該找到一種適合自己、對你有吸引力的學習方式。

463

And that makes sense because language learning is a continuous process.

這是有道理的，因為語言學習是一個持續的過程。

464

We say use it or lose it it's super susceptible to attrition.

我們常說用進廢退，它特別容易退化。

465

So you so quickly forget it, right?

你這麼快就忘了，是吧？

466

So you have to find a way of learning

所以你得找到一種學習的方法

467

that appeals to you and that you can maintain over a long period of time

既合你心意，又能長期堅持下去

468

because there's no end in that sense, right?

因為從這個角度來說根本沒有盡頭，對吧？

469

So that's the most important message probably.

這大概就是最重要的資訊了。

470

Nice.

不錯。

471

Well, Simone, thank you so much.

西蒙娜，非常感謝你。

472

This has been really interesting.

這真的很有意思。

473

You're most welcome.

不客氣。

474

Thanks for having me.

謝謝你們的邀請。

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本課的詞彙與口語要點

這段影片共有 474 個句子、5736 個單詞可供跟讀。講話部分時長為 41:54。說話人語速平穩，每分鐘約 137 個詞，很適合跟讀。 83% 的單詞屬於英語最常用的 3,000 詞，其餘的詞建議在練習前先學一下。

影片中的重點詞彙

影片中 15 個不太常見的單詞，附發音和釋義：

cognitive /ˈkɑɡ.nɪ.tɪv/ (形容詞) — 認知的 /認知的. Relating to the part of mental functions that deals with logic, as opposed to affective which deals with emotions.
input /ˈɪnpʊt/ (名詞) — 輸入 /輸入. The act or process of putting in; infusion.
acquisition /ˌæk.wɪˈzɪʃ.ən/ (名詞) — 獲得 /獲得. The act or process of acquiring.
decline /dɪˈklaɪn/ (動詞) — 惡化 /惡化. To move downwards, to fall, to drop.
hypothesis /haɪˈpɒθɪsɪs/ (名詞) — 假說 /假說, 假設 /假設. A tentative conjecture explaining an observation, phenomenon or scientific problem and that can be tested by further observation, investigation, or…
bilingual /baɪˈlɪŋ.ɡwəl/ (形容詞) — 雙語 /雙語. Having the ability to speak two languages fluently.
accent /ækˈsɛnt/ (名詞) — 重音, 腔調 /腔調. A higher-pitched or stronger (louder or longer) articulation of a particular syllable of a word or phrase in order to distinguish it from the others or to…
intensity /ɪnˈtɛnsɪti/ (名詞) — 強度 /強度, 強烈 /強烈. The quality of being intense.
assumption /əˈsʌm(p).ʃ(ə)n/ (名詞) — 假設 /假設. The act of assuming, or taking to or upon oneself; the act of taking up or adopting.
interaction /ˌɪn.təˈɹæk.ʃən/ (名詞) — 相互作用. The situation or occurrence in which two or more things act upon one another to produce an effect; the effect resulting from such a situation or occurrence.
scholar /ˈskɑlɚ/ (名詞) — 學生 /學生. A student; one who studies at school or college, typically having a scholarship.
linguistic /lɪŋˈɡwɪstɪk/ (形容詞) — 語言的 /語言的. Of or relating to language.
necessarily /ˌnɛs.əˈsɛɹ.ə.li/ (副詞) — 必然地, 必定地. Inevitably; of necessity.
output /ˈaʊtpʊt/ (名詞) — 輸出 /輸出. Production; quantity produced, created, or completed.
interference /ˌɪntəɹˈfɪɹɪns/ (名詞) — 阻礙 /阻礙, 干涉. The act of interfering with something, or something that interferes.

影片中出現的短語動詞

carry out /ˈkæ.ɹi aʊt/ (動詞) — 進行 /進行. To hold while moving it out.
end up (動詞) — 到達. To bring to a conclusion.
grow up (動詞) — 長大 /長大. To mature and become an adult.
pick up (動詞) — 拾取, 撿 /撿. To lift; to grasp and raise.
fill in (動詞) — 頂班 /頂班, 代班. To fill; to replace material that is absent or has been removed.
go through (動詞) — 通過 /通過. To travel from one end of something to the other.
look at (動詞) — 觀察 /觀察, 看. To observe or watch.
point out (動詞) — 指, 指出. To identify among a group of similar subjects, or in a scene where the subject might not be readily seen or noticed, with a gesture of the body.

需要注意的發音

說話人用了 81 次縮略和弱讀形式，例如 they're, you're, don't。請按聽到的簡短形式來說。

“th” 音: hypothesis /haɪˈpɒθɪsɪs/, authentic /ɔˈθɛn.tɪk/, mathematics /mæθ(.ə)ˈmæt.ɪks/, threshold /ˈθɹɛʃ(h)oʊld/
“sh” 和 “zh” 音: acquisition /ˌæk.wɪˈzɪʃ.ən/, assumption /əˈsʌm(p).ʃ(ə)n/, interaction /ˌɪn.təˈɹæk.ʃən/, potentially /pəˈtɛnʃ(ə)li/, essentially /ɪˈsɛnʃəli/
長單詞——注意重音位置: acquisition /ˌæk.wɪˈzɪʃ.ən/, hypothesis /haɪˈpɒθɪsɪs/, intensity /ɪnˈtɛnsɪti/, interaction /ˌɪn.təˈɹæk.ʃən/, necessarily /ˌnɛs.əˈsɛɹ.ə.li/

如何用這段影片練習

先完整聽一遍影片，不要開口，記下不認識的單詞。
用正常速度逐句跟讀，每句重複到你的節奏與說話人一致為止。
錄下自己的聲音並與原聲對比，特別注意 cognitive, input, acquisition 這類單詞。

影片中的語法

說話人最常用的結構，並附上影片中的原話：

結構	影片中的用法
現在完成時 have/has + 過去分詞 — 過去發生但與現在仍有關聯的事	has closed · have tried · I've just said
被動語態 be + 過去分詞 — 強調發生了什麼，而不是誰做的	is modified · is closed · was formulated
定語從句 who / which + 從句 — 補充說明人或事物	Zurich, which is · acquisition, which is · children who are

什麼是跟讀法？

跟讀法 (Shadowing) 是一種有科學依據的語言學習技巧，最初開發用於專業口譯員的培訓，並由多語言者Alexander Arguelles博士普及。這個方法簡單而強大：您在聽英語母語原聲的同時立即大聲重複——就像是一個延遲1-2秒緊跟說話者的影子。與被動聽力或語法練習不同，跟讀法強迫您的大腦和口腔肌肉同時處理並模模擬實的講話模式。研究表明它能顯著提高發音準確性，語調，節奏，連讀，聽力理解和口語流利度——使其成為雅思口語備考和真實英語交流最有效的方法之一。

影子跟讀法: 閱讀完整分步指南 →

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本課的詞彙與口語要點

影片中的重點詞彙

影片中出現的短語動詞

需要注意的發音

如何用這段影片練習

影片中的語法

什麼是跟讀法？