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This conversation is often reduced to labels.
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In this episode of The Bridge, feminist and anti-feminist women sit face to face to explore where their beliefs about womanhood,
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equality, and freedom align, and where they don't.
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I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Daff.
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Welcome to The Bridge.
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Welcome ladies, thank you for being here today.
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Why don't you just go ahead and introduce yourselves.
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Hi, my name is Kayla Turner and I am a feminist.
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Hi, my name is Anne, I'm a feminist.
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I'm Bella, I'm a feminist.
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I'm Ceci, I'm a feminist.
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I'm Chelsea Godz, I'm a feminist.
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I'm Matrix and I'm anti-feminist.
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I'm Jada and I'm an anti-feminist.
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I'm Savannah and I'm anti-feminist.
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Hello everyone, I'm Maggie.
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I do not identify as a feminist.
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Hi, I'm Carmen Jaycee and I am an anti-feminist.
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Thank you ladies.
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And the first prompt is, women have more privileges today than men.
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Okay, anyone can, anyone who feels strongly can speak.
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I think women in many ways have more privileges but they also have more oppressions.
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And I think both of these things have to be weighed in when you're talking about people's social power.
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It's really important to understand that women face significant oppressions, significant issues.
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And so while some of the privileges that we can identify, like courts tend to be lenient to them, for example, if there's a situation,
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for example, of custody, women are going to be favored in that situation.
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They also have less choice with their bodies.
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They have issues where with hiring, if they try to negotiate, they'll be seen as caustic and negative because they're kind of our stereotypical presumptions of how women have to be.
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And these things impact women significantly.
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That's just why I would say they have less political power overall as well.
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Well, just one of those things was not true in regards to custody decisions in this country.
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In fact, men are more likely to receive custody of their children if they ask for it.
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If men seek custody in a court in the United States of America,
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statistically, they are 90 percent likely to receive more custody or possibly even exactly what they were asking for.
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I would just say that women are not more likely to receive custody of children in court.
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Men are, women just are the ones who more receive custody in court.
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It's true, it's only 4% of men fight for custody of their children.
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And when they do, it's successful 90% of the time.
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So that would tell me the court actually favors men.
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I understand that there's like kind of this anecdote that family court does in fact favor women, but it just so happens that women are more likely to want custody of their children.
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And that's where that mythology comes from.
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I would disagree.
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You mentioned that men get custody when they ask for it.
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And that presumes that women don't have to ask for it.
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Why doesn't it begin equal and men not having to ask for custody if they are actually full parents,
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just like the mom?
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Sure, that's a great question.
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I think it's really important that we have a conversation that our laws are written by men.
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Our courts are ruled by men.
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So if you have some concern about what a court presumes, well, that's a conversation to have with men, too.
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They're the ones who wrote the laws.
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I saw you shaking your head.
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I just know that my dad got custody of me because he asked for it.
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And it's just a personal experience.
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It's not everything.
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Sorry, go ahead.
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I completely agree that all of the laws that we have, we can vote now, but we're still in a system that was designed by men.
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And so a lot of the issues that we have, that men have, are because the decisions that they made.
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But why would you start out assuming 50-50, like that both parents want the kid?
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Because in a lot of cases, like men just aren't asking.
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So wouldn't you want to make the assumption that like the parent who pursues custody is the one who, one, feels empowered to and two, wants to?
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Because I agree, like there is a system set up where men probably don't feel empowered to ask for custody of their children.
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But I think that they should, first of all.
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But there is a problem, like you can't just say, oh, it's fully the court system's fault.
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I think there is a culture that encourages young men to just say, oh, well, well, that's a woman's job.
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That's, you know, not my job.
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Not, you know, if the woman wants the kid, she can have the kid.
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And I don't know why a court would assume that a father just wants to be a father.
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I was going to say, so wouldn't that culture that would put
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that on men be a result of feminism? because men would probably prefer to have the women in their household.
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And also women are the ones that are more likely to engage in divorce.
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So men want to stay with these women.
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Engage in divorce?
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Yeah.
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Like start divorce.
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Like a past divorce.
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File.
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File.
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Yeah.
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And men are the ones that actually stay because they want their family together.
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It is women that actually disrupt the family and then they get upset with the results of a disrupted family.
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AMY WALTER, Or they just want to keep the woman so that she's running the household.
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I don't know if it's necessarily they—I don't know.
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Men can't function as well without women as women can without a man.
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So I feel like when he hears divorce is on the table, it's going to disrupt his life a lot more.
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And I feel like that's really what they're thinking about.
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AMY WALTER, We also—so women do initiate divorce more.
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The issue is that they also initiate couples therapy.
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They also initiate seeking every single other alternative before divorce at basically the same rates as we see with divorce rates, right?
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So yes, women are divorcing.
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The issue is
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that like men accepting a loveless marriage with children who are miserable isn't like this thing
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that we should hold up and go, see, isn't this better?
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It's like actually all of this is unhealthy, right?
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It's unhealthy that men have been socialized in such a way that they don't think of themselves as fathers first, that they aren't asking for it, right?
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Whereas in this way, this is where women have been taught for both good and bad that you are a mom, right?
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And I think we default to that, which is harmful to women.
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But we have to acknowledge that women are seeking off-ramps in these relationships where divorce happens.
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And the same issues that they say for divorce are happening over and over and over again.
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And this is a systemic issue.
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It's not just women want to get out of their marriages.
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It's that women won't tolerate a loveless, empty marriage, which is not even good for children.
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A loveless, empty marriage, how does the system contribute to what happens in your marriage?
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Well, the way that we raise our boys, right, for example, is we teach them that your emotions are bad.
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So think about the way that we raise young boys.
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The most common way that young boys express their feelings is called externalizing.
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You see this in clinical data.
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The way that boys express their feelings, we teach them the only emotion you're allowed to have as a boy is anger.
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That's the only one allowed.
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But if you have anger, go to your room.
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Nobody wants to look at you or deal with you.
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And so what we've done is we've taught men that their feelings aren't okay, that if they have them, they're isolated and weak for having them.
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And so the only alternative for them is anger or anhedonia, a complete emptiness and vacuousness.
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And so in this way, this is how society is contributing to this, because the presumptions we place onto our children that set a course and script for them that destroys their relationships.
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And men are reporting this.
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They're lonely, they have less friends, and their marriages don't work out.
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Men are saying this, not just women.
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Well, women do say it.
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So I mean, I don't understand why it's always like, the men, the men, because the men aren't emotional, because the men aren't this.
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And women are the ones that want to leave.
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So what do— AMY WALTER, Women Want to Leave, and maybe we should ask them why, because men are responsible for 90 percent of the violent crime in the U.S.
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We always talk about women and what we should be doing.
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I really can't—I talk about feminism a lot, and I get so sick of it, because I don't know why we're not talking about men.
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We're always focusing on women and what we should be doing and what we shouldn't be doing with men.
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They're responsible for 95 percent of domestic violence, 93 percent of sexual assaults and pedophilia, 88 percent of homicides, 85 percent of serial killings, 98 percent of mass shootings.
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I go on and 77% of assaults they are responsible for
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so much and then we sit here
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and want to make women feel bad for wanting to leave
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that man I don't know why we always are focusing on women all the time well
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because their solution is always to leave it's never not always sometimes they want to have therapy
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and the man doesn't want to do that therapy is such BS
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because you go to a couple therapist
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and they say oh yeah you should leave your husband that's not always true yes
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that is always the solution no and I'm okay
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so you're just making assumptions I've heard so many stories I I've seen it online.
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If you have a marriage and couples counselor and they are just recommending divorce, which is not true.
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I've gone to marriage counseling and they didn't recommend divorce.
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If they're doing that off the hop, that would be unethical.
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You can actually report them for that.
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They're trained for more than this.
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A marriage counselor got trained to see marriages be happy.
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The thing that they want is a fixed, rectified marriage.
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Sometimes that can happen for a number of reasons.
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However, the idea that marriage counselors are just telling women to divorce their husbands is
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so far from any of the literature that reports on this, so far from the ethics these people are trained on, is basically taking an entire field of care workers and saying,
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you actually just want to destroy the thing that you care for, which is just, it's just not true.
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Okay.
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I need to ask a question to both sides.
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So ladies on this side, do you believe that the gender gap pay is still real?
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No, it's not.
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That's been debunked so many times.
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Okay.
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And ladies on this side, I'm sorry, I want to hear from you on this side.
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I think it's real if you just look at statistics.
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A lot of people say like, oh, well, women are just choosing different jobs.
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And it's like we're raised to idealize different jobs.
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But even then, it's like women, if you have a child, you're now also working and you have a child, you're not going to work as much.
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So it's like that's to blame.
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The gender pay gap is huge.
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And the whole, I think it's like 75 cents on the dollar is just for white women.
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It's less for Hispanic women.
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It's less for black women.
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It changes.
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It's very real.
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But you think that they're choosing hospitality jobs because they were raised that way or because women just naturally like those jobs?
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Well, let's say nursing.
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Nursing used to be a male-only profession.
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They wouldn't let women work on women's bodies at all.
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It became more female-dominated, and now men don't even want to be in that profession, so then they lower the pay because it's a woman's job.
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Same thing with teaching.
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It used to be just a male-only job.
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We wouldn't let women teach.
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Women got into it.
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Suddenly the pay drops for it.
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Well, and not to mention, in addition to things like the gender pay gap, we also now see that women majority professions are being attacked education wise,
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as the Trump administration just made it so that you can't consider nursing a professional degree.
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Audiology is no longer a professional degree.
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And making it harder for you to get student loans because they've maxed out how much you can get in student loans.
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And all of these affect women more than it affects men.
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Well, if you're a chiropractor, great job.
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That's still a professional degree because that's the job that most men would seek.
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But if you're going to be a nurse, well, that's the job most women would seek.
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Now you don't get to have a loan for the amount that you need.
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That's an example of a gender pay gap.
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That's an example of like what happens when you're taking opportunity away from women
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and women not making as much or being given as much in a loan or whatever.
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Do you do you on this side feel that you can support women and not identify with the feminist movement?
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Not if you like pants.
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My mom went to school.
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My mom went to school and when until middle school she had to wear a skirt every single day.
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That is one generation.
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That is my mother.
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If you're wearing pants, you get to wear those in public because people like my mother were part of the feminist movement.
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I respectfully disagree here, right?
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So like I worked in an addiction center that was an addiction counselor, formerly.
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It was for women.
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It was a Christian center, right?
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What you'll often see is
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that some of the most like dominant nonprofits for women are often religious in nature
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that tends to lean towards like the right side.
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Most of the people that I worked with didn't identify as feminists.
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They obviously helped women.
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I also obviously disagreed with them on a lot of stuff.
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I think that when women dislike feminism, it's because they have issues with specific feminists or they in my mind have like some misinfo that they believe in, right?
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But like of course you can be like a person who cares about women and not identify as a label.
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I would just say come to my side.
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You probably do agree fundamentally with my presumptions about what feminism should be for and what it is.
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Anyone have anything to say about that on this side?
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As far as being a feminist and supporting women?
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I don't think the feminist movement supports women at all.
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I think it actually harms them.
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It's told us that sexual exploitation is empowering and
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that we should kill our offspring if it's an inconvenience to our life and that marriage and family are not important anymore.
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I mean, it's completely destroyed everything that's been unique about womanhood the alternative
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is like let me get my ass beat take my xanax
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and raise these kids
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when i don't want to like what's the alternative for women
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who don't aren't happy at home like that's what i don't
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understand women are pill popping more now than they were in
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the 50s they're more depressed than they were yes yes this
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is completely men are four times women yes two times more
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likely to be on antidepressants than men men are four times more likely to kill themselves why do you think
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that we're more likely to be on antidepressants uh capitalism the
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way the world is the economy i'll I'll tell you right now, the economy controls the mood of the country.
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The mood of the country sucks because the economy, capitalism, is the actual enemy here, not feminism.
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Feminism was just a human rights movement like the civil rights movement.
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Black people should have equal rights.
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What's the difference between a woman and a black person?
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It's just a matter of, no, you want equal rights as a human because you should have them.
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I should have them too, right?
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It was just a human rights movement.
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It was focused on the gender, and then we focused on the race, and we all came up.
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I don't know why everyone can't come up together.
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Yeah, I feel like there's a huge misnomer on what feminism is.
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Feminism is not me telling you to go abort your firstborn son.
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I don't care what you do with your body.
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Feminism is you have the opportunity to do what you want because of— you have a bank card because of feminism, you get to wear pants because of feminism, you get to have a job because of feminism,
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you get to get out of the house if you want to because of feminism.
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This is not about, like, trying to control your life.
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There is more room for people who are anti-feminist in the
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world of feminists than there is for people like me in your world.
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I don't care if a person wants to go have children their whole life, and that's what they want to do.
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Most of my friends are stay-at-home moms.
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Many of my extremely liberal friends are stay-at-home mothers.
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And do you think I denigrate their decision to sacrifice their life for their children?
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Absolutely not.
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I'm a mother myself.
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But I also want to have the opportunity to work if I want to, because, for me, that's where I find happiness.
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There is space for you in our movement, but there is no space for us in yours.
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We're inclusive.
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Feminism is not telling you what to do with your life.
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Yeah, you can have a baby.
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Feminism is letting you do whatever you want with your life.
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Sorry.
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I agree, though.
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I agree.
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Do whatever you want with your life.
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Feminism is letting you do what you want with your life, and I don't want to tell you not to get married
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when you're 19 and pop out seven kids if that's a thing that's going to be happy for you, but I want to offer people the opportunity that they can also do something else if that's what makes them happy.
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So I did get a sense
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that someone on this side felt like this side was feeling or was speaking in a way that felt racist.
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Can you speak to that?
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So when you said something about the difference between women and black people.
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As far as human rights.
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Can I speak or are you going to keep cutting me off?
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Yeah, go for it.
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Right, thank you.
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You're welcome.
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That's like one of my main issues with feminism is like even Susan B.
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Anthony, like she compared
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white women to the black man and she felt a way
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that black man got the right to vote before white women
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and That's like also something that I don't agree with
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because white women thinking they're superior to black men You know
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why why do you need the right to vote before our men?
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That's the question I'm saying everyone should have it at the same time Why do you have to about when it happened?
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I'm saying everyone is a human It was just you just
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that are your ways
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Or your gender like you should be able to live your life the way you want That's the feminist movement.
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But why did you have to bring up black people?
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That's what I'm trying to say.
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Because it's a human rights movement.
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I'm comparing.
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You're performative, babe.
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Okay, I'm comparing human rights movements.
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Black people exist.
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Women exist.
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You don't have to speak on it.
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I think both of them should.
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Why?
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It's a human rights movement.
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That's what we're talking about.
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It's not productive.
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It's not productive to talk about human rights movement
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and compare the two when they're just about equalizing things for people so that we can all come up together.
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I'm letting you know that it's offensive.
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I'm telling you that it's offensive.
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It's offensive for me to say that women should have the same rights as black people.
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Yep, it is.
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It's offensive for me to say that all humans should have the same rights as everyone.
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That we should all have the same rights.
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That's not what you said.
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There's a difference between everyone and black people.
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Literally right now I'm saying everyone, I don't give a damn.
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Sorry, what your skin color is, what's between your legs.
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I don't care about any of that.
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I want everyone to be able to make the decisions they want for themselves and have the same rights.
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I don't want you to have any less rights than me.
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I don't want this guy to have any less rights than me or more.
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Everyone should be even.
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That's fucked up for me to say.
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Okay, go ahead.
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I'm just curious what's racist about the statement that I want women to have the same rights as black people.
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Because you said that's racist.
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I'm just curious what's racist about that.
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Well, because first of all, you guys classify women as second sex, right?
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You guys think women, this comes from the feminist movement.
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We look at women and we say, oh, we're treated as second class citizens.
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We're treated less than men.
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And so it is, it's a little bit dehumanizing to say, for one, you want to fight for women to have better rights and then to look at black people, which isn't just black women,
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that's black men, our men, that we need to be, you know, we expect our men to be strong, you know.
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And for you to say, oh, well, women deserve the same rights.
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Black people should get the same rights as women.
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It's, there's this culture in black culture where we, our men are constantly emasculated, right?
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So I'm very very like one.
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I mean my husband's a black man
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So I'm very intentional about how we speak about our black men and I don't like that
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So talking about I don't like but but you need to be mindful, okay?
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Since you're a liberal and that's what y'all are about you to be mindful.
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I say anything racist I didn't say anything like that at all.
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You're trying to misconstrued now.
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You are getting my twisted Thank you for did she answer
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your question about what I don't did her now feel like I like
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and I'm not trying to be I know you're trying to actually understand I genuinely understand.
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Which part of the conversation offended her and I think— It wasn't you.
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She said something.
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No, no, no. I understand it wasn't me.
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I'm trying to understand you said the statement, I want women to have the same rights as black people.
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I'm trying to understand what's racist about that.
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I think— Because you wouldn't say that about a white man.
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It's the men part, I think, that got added to— Right.
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You don't have to say women and black people and then not speak on, like, black—like, what about the black men?
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You know what I mean?
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Like, I don't understand why you do that.
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Can someone speak to this?
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Like, I'm going crazy.
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Did anyone else, did any other ladies on the set feel that same way about that statement?
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I think she's just kind of referring to, like, women should have the same rights as everybody.
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Why do you have to single out black people or black men?
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The reason I sing, not men.
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Black men have the same rights as everybody right now.
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Women have the same rights as everyone.
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We're equal right now.
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So how far do feminism have to go before you guys see that we're equal?
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But you want to, some, I'm not talking about you guys, because I don't know where you stand as far as anti-feminism.
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There are people that are working, actively working to take our rights away so that we are backsliding into time.
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As far as, like, what, abortion?
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Repealing the 19th.
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Yeah, getting rid of the women's right to vote.
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The 19th is never going to be repealed.
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I think people are trolling.
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Never say never.
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But she's right.
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I meant everyone should have the same rights.
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And I only brought up black people because of the civil rights movement happening around the same time.
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These were human rights movements.
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We all tried to come up together, which I love, and I think we all should have the same rights.
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I don't think that's a...
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I don't think you had ill intent.
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I don't think you had ill intent.
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I'm just like, we need to be careful about how we speak when we bring in black people,
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because we're always constantly attaching every civil rights kind of movement to black identity.
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Like, we're always the LGBT, everything.
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It's always connected to black people.
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And so I'm just like, no. That's what I'm saying is no. I don't think that you were trying to be like evil about it, but I'm just saying be careful because
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Y'all have a tendency to always group black people into every single thing
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and it's just not always the time to speak on it I have noticed that feminists
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and myself included in this tend to get uncomfortable with conversations
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about race We don't know how to talk about race very well
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and Even just this whole debacle
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that just happened was just kind of like affirming about like we need to get better at it Cuz thank you.
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That's what I'm saying.
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Like just don't bring it up.
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Hi loves, it's me again, Dr. Michelle Daff.
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The next prompt is, no career will give women as much joy and fulfillment as raising children.
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Okay, okay.
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Maybe it's someone who hasn't spoken.
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I'm a Christian, so as much as you guys know all your statistics and everything about things, it's more that it conflicts with my Christian belief so much, right?
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So I believe that we're here to reproduce.
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That's one of the things in the Bible, the first thing about men and women, is that they were brought together and it was to be fruitful and multiply.
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So I think one of the most valuable things we can do as women in society is to continue reproducing
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and raise the next generation.
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So that's really important.
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And then I'm kind of seeing how this generation is being raised in a lot of single mother households and stuff.
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And so I really want to prioritize bringing back the nuclear family, men in the homes and us in traditional roles.
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And that's my belief.
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So I said yes, but it's with a huge caveat, which is that both genders report greater life satisfaction when they have children.
417
Like children's good for everyone, and this idea that we're lumping it to women is part of my problem with this, right?
418
So do women experience like greater life satisfaction?
419
Yes, so do men, except who do we expect to be home?
420
Women.
421
We're like penalizing men and women.
422
For example, if a woman wants to have a career, it feels like your side is saying, well, that would be good.
423
Okay, well, she's also going to get life satisfaction from her career.
424
In fact, there's a lot of acute happiness that often comes attached to a career.
425
The issue is that like men
426
and women should have the agency to choose both of these things because they should both have access to it, right?
427
There isn't a reason why we should tell men, women have to stay home, you must stay at work, you won't get a relationship with your children, you get a relationship with your kids for six hours a day.
428
I don't think that that's better, right?
429
Speaking of the capitalism, I think if you look at models that have like 32-hour work weeks, you have greater happiness amongst men, women, children, because both parents are home with their children.
430
And frankly, if a woman wants to not have a child, that's fine.
431
That's her prerogative to do, right?
432
You can still have great life satisfaction and happiness from not having a child.
433
I just want to say one thing because she brought up capitalism.
434
The nuclear family unit, I love the idea.
435
Honestly, my dad was a stay-at-home dad for a while.
436
Then my mom was.
437
They like switched on and off a little bit, which I loved having my dad at home.
438
I thought it was dope.
439
And I think it would be awesome if we could have a parent in the household.
440
But the reality is, feminism didn't stop that.
441
It was capitalism.
442
The 1950s nuclear family unit existed because we were taxing the rich at 90 percent.
443
We don't tax them anymore.
444
Amazon and Tesla, they paid zero dollars in taxes.
445
So I wish you could all be your trad wives that you want to be.
446
I just don't know if your man will be able to afford the house to put you in the kitchen.
447
You know what I'm saying?
448
We have to really focus on the capitalism part of it, because if you want to be able to have a woman at home with your kids, you have to be able to afford to do that.
449
And a lot of people right now can't afford to, even if they want to.
450
So before attacking feminism, we should be eating the rich.
451
We should be attacking billionaires and taking back the tax money so that you can have your nuclear family unit.
452
I wanted to speak on this one.
453
Could you repeat the prompt for me, please?
454
No career would give women as much joy and fulfillment as raising children.
455
Okay.
456
So I'm probably the oldest one here turned 50 last month
457
so as a golden girl who has raised boys I'm a boy mom who was a professional woman
458
and that cost me my marriage thinking
459
that the career was more important than the family and
460
so my position is from learning from the mistakes
461
that I made to help younger women make decisions that they will be happy with when they're my age.
462
And you brought up the word acute.
463
There's nothing wrong with working.
464
And I do want to say we are not expecting the man exclusively works and the woman is exclusively home.
465
Both of my parents worked and took time.
466
You know, you work it out for your family with your husband.
467
That's all that matters.
468
It doesn't— She brought up the nuclear family unit.
469
Nuclear family means mom, dad, sister, brother, or whatever it is.
470
It doesn't mean only dad works and only mom is in the kitchen.
471
Generations ago, mom may have side businesses, do other things, you know, sew, you know, bake, whatever it is.
472
You do what's best for the family.
473
All I'm saying, as a woman with lived experience, who has been an executive, who has had the big bonuses and all of that,
474
I promise you, having a son that is a Marine, working with my ex-husband to raise two boys that we are very proud of, one that's going to the Air Force,
475
nothing will give you that fulfillment than being a mother.
476
I'm telling you now, the acute accomplishments are great, but legacy trumps everything.
477
Well, this is the important thing of like fourth wave feminism especially, is we want women to have agency to choose.
478
Absolutely.
479
And if you want to choose raising your kids, that's awesome.
480
And if you want to choose a career, that's fine.
481
I want even women to choose choices that might be worse than the long come, because agency and choice is so—you want to talk about biblical?
482
God gave us the ability to choose.
483
If you think that this is—feminism is maximizing the capacity for women to choose, including what you might view as wrong, right?
484
Because the problem is that if you limit women's ability to choose, all you do is you just make good behavior the necessity of survival.
485
That's not noble.
486
That's not anything that we strive for.
487
Race is fundamental to feminism because it means you get to choose good or bad.
488
But if you're good because you just have to be, that isn't meaningful.
489
So we want you guys to have kids.
490
We want us to have kids.
491
We just want women to be able to choose.
492
And there is increasingly pressure to pressure women.
493
We want to talk about the waging and earnings gap.
494
The earning gap exists for two reasons.
495
One of the biggest reasons is because women will choose professions and have plateau careers during motherhood.
496
That's the main reason that women earn less.
497
The second reason is because they tend to work less hours.
498
Again, because typically they choose to stay home with children.
499
And I'm not saying career is all of this stuff.
500
But if you want to get comprehensive here and you want to talk about happiness and meaning and choice, what we're also doing to women, which is saying, you get to choose a career,
501
but you're kind of a bad woman if you choose career over your children.
502
We're not doing that to men.
503
Men are choosing their careers over their children every day
504
because we've told men that their value is tied to the GDP output that they provide for their family.
505
I think that's just as anti-biblical.
506
I'm going to talk about biblical.
507
It's not the nuclear family that's biblical.
508
It's intergenerational families and villages.
509
And what we're telling men is, leave your kids, have nothing else, work every day of your life so that when you're 50 and retire, your kids don't know you and they resent you.
510
That's what we're telling people to do right now.
511
As a feminist, I'm saying, no, both should choose.
512
Everyone should choose, including men and including women.
513
I would argue that men get satisfaction from providing.
514
I think that is their ultimate instinct.
515
And I'm not saying working themselves to death.
516
I mean, unfortunately, like I think the 40 hour work week is stupid.
517
I think entrepreneurship is great for men because they can decide kind of what to do with their time.
518
But I think innately and my husband can attest to this.
519
Men want to provide for their family and women tend to like to nurture their family.
520
They tend to like to be with the kids more.
521
So that's why they're choosing more part time jobs.
522
They're choosing maybe running a business.
523
They're choosing paying hobbies.
524
That is why that they do that.
525
And I would also argue that women are not being pressured to stay home.
526
I think women are being pressured right now in society to choose career over family and over marriage.
527
Well, this is completely unrelated since we're not going to be ping-ponging back and forth now.
528
For an example, so just so you guys know, I was raised in a very traditional Christian religion.
529
I was raised Mormon.
530
And from the age of birth until 18 years old, I was told that the thing that was going to make me the very happiest was having a family.
531
That is something that is told to you in these kind of patriarchal religions, is that the thing that is going to fulfill you is having a family.
532
The thing that is going to fulfill you is taking care of a man's needs.
533
The thing that is going to fulfill you is having a husband.
534
And the reality is, every person on the planet has some general idea about what's going to make them happy.
535
And I refuse to believe
536
that having children is going to be the ultimate goal for every woman on this planet or every man on this planet.
537
And I think that the idea of putting people into small boxes and saying, women are women, therefore the thing that's going to make you happiest is popping a baby out of your baby hole,
538
I think is dangerous.
539
Because I was raised in a culture that told me
540
that what was going to make me happiest was having a baby and popping it out of my baby hole.
541
This last summer I went to a Mormon event, which is kind of unusual for me because I've been out of the church for a really long time now.
542
And I was having a conversation with a woman who she'd gotten married when she was 20, done everything traditional.
543
She was a trad wife, you know, worked with, had her kids, her husband worked, she stayed at home.
544
We're having a conversation and our kids are jumping on the tramp together and she looks over at me and she's like, don't you just hate our children?
545
And I was like, excuse me, what?
546
She's like, oh yeah, my sister and I talk about all the time how awful being a mom is.
547
Don't you just hate it?
548
I don't hate being a mom.
549
You know why I don't hate being a mom?
550
Because I chose to be a mother.
551
Because the first time I had children, I was 30 years old.
552
The first time I had a child and I'm proud to be a mom.
553
I'm proud of everyone who chooses to be a mom I don't want everyone to choose
554
that but this woman who I was talking to had a hatred of motherhood and her hatred of motherhood
555
Came from a place where she wasn't given another choice The
556
reason why she resented what her life had become was
557
because she had been told from birth that the only thing She was to become was to be a mother Not me.
558
I was whatever I wanted to be and I chose to be a mom
559
because that was a joy that I chose for myself
560
But I want you to know that I find children to be joyful, but not everyone does.
561
And teaching every woman or every man that what's going to fulfill them in their life is children, I actually think is harmful.
562
Because what happens when it turns out you have a kid and it doesn't fulfill you?
563
Well then, you're a mom hanging out with me, watching our kids jump on a trampoline, thinking to yourself, I really hate being a mother.
564
And I would like to avoid that because I think that there is joy in children.
565
I think there is joy in that.
566
But it's not for everyone.
567
And I don't want to teach every woman or every man that that's how we should be.
568
The same could be said about feminism, right?
569
So like kind of what she was saying, I almost lost my marriage from prioritizing a career.
570
And I had gained very masculine traits.
571
Like I was just, I wasn't serving my family.
572
I wasn't paying attention to my family's needs.
573
I wasn't prioritizing having a child.
574
I'm going now into my 30s and finally at a position where I'm like, I'm all in to serve my home the past year.
575
So I wasted all this time chasing after a career and once again almost ended up a divorced woman.
576
But that has nothing to do with feminism, right?
577
Because feminism allowed her the opportunity to have a career and the opportunity to have a child.
578
And she chose what was best for her.
579
And she may feel that that's what ended her marriage.
580
But I don't believe that that's what ended her marriage, because her husband was involved in that, too.
581
There were two people in your marriage.
582
You know, he could have probably been involved.
583
If he felt that that was a problem, then maybe that's a conversation that could have been worked out.
584
But I don't believe feminism is why your marriage ended.
585
I don't believe that for one second.
586
You're allowed to have kids in feminism.
587
You're allowed to raise a family in feminism.
588
You're allowed to, of course you are.
589
I have kids.
590
It's like, when it's about children, it's about serving others.
591
It's about serving your home.
592
Feminism is very, just, it's me.
593
It's about prioritizing my needs, my happiness, right?
594
It's about going and getting things done that will fulfill me, like a job and a career.
595
I was just wondering, like you're saying, Feminism pushed me to get a job right like
596
or do you think it might be more of the system that we have?
597
We need money to survive.
598
I think that pushed you more to getting a job than having equal rights Did you need to get the job?
599
I don't want to interrogate your guys' lives like you guys get to make the choices
600
that you guys want to make The problem is
601
when you take your story and you tell other people that that has to be their story, right?
602
So when you say I regret it because I that's fine.
603
That's fine.
604
That's your story What do you guys think is the number of regret one regret of men who are dying in hospice?
605
Not spending enough time with their children.
606
Why don't they?
607
Because they sacrifice.
608
Because they're expected to provide.
609
So if both are staying home though, who's gonna provide?
610
But the issues that both can provide, that's what almost all families are doing.
611
So if both of them are gone, then daycare is raising the children.
612
That's an unfortunate issue that we could go back to capitalism.
613
We can talk about issues as far as like providing UBI or providing free health care or allowing villages to raise children.
614
I'm with you on these things.
615
But the idea is what you're trying to do is saying, men must provide and you are dooming men and women to the same lives that they have reported saying, I'm miserable.
616
So many women, for example.
617
There is, do you guys know about the gray divorce rates?
618
So divorce rates amongst boomer parents is exploding because all those women
619
and men stayed in a marriage because they had to raise their kids.
620
And what you see is high levels of regret, particularly from the women.
621
What I want is a world where people get to understand that they can just sort the relationship any way they want.
622
If the man thinks it's better for him to be out 60% of the time
623
and she's home for the rest of the time, that's fine if they want to make that choice.
624
The problem is you're prescribing it to men.
625
And I'm not going to do that.
626
You're prescribing it to women.
627
I'm not going to do that.
628
What did I prescribe?
629
You're telling them that a man should be a provider and that a woman should be an attorney.
630
I know.
631
I said that they get innate fulfillment from that.
632
It's a prescription.
633
It's saying it's fundamental to who you are.
634
So what is your solution? because if the man's not providing and the woman's not providing, who's going to provide?
635
We can talk about economics if you want to.
636
We're not going to talk about it right now.
637
And the next prompt is, the sexual revolution has devalued women and made them infinitely less happy.
638
Yes, yes, yes.
639
No, no, maybe.
640
Okay.
641
Whoever feels strongly about it can speak.
642
I think that this term calling it a sexual revolution is quite strange and it distorts history.
643
If you look at the history of like the way that people engaged in sex, it really has not quite changed much.
644
The only thing that we've seen change for the most part is the rise in social media
645
and the rise of seeking out sexual relationships through that.
646
Because you can go back through history and look at like the Greeks and the Romans that were very openly sexual.
647
People were having sex in public.
648
Like it was not a private thing.
649
It never was, and it really only became like this private thing
650
when you look at like the rise of like industrialism in the United States
651
and you see sex become like commodified and it became like a dirty thing with also the rise of,
652
you know, like religion and Protestantism in the U.S also kind of demonized it and it became a weapon used against women.
653
And I think
654
that we've seen the pendulum go from like being hypersexual in the past where sex wasn't like a commodified thing
655
or it wasn't a demonized thing to kind of going through
656
this period of like demonizing people for exploring their sexuality or things like that.
657
And now we've kind of come back out the other side where some people abuse it, some people don't.
658
And I think that you have to have moderation.
659
I've said this before, like as far as devaluing women, I think that the problem with devaluing women who are open about their sexuality
660
or commodify their own sexuality and take control over it is a problem with patriarchy
661
and I think it's a problem with misogyny I don't think it's a feminism problem well I would say
662
that when you like put yourself out there to be overly overly sexual
663
and you don't give men anything to work for
664
so you lessen your value so
665
if you want women to be valuable then having a lot
666
of sex with men being just out there not caring about how you you present yourself,
667
that is not going to make you happy.
668
You're actually sadder now.
669
You're not happy.
670
But, and I think that, you know, women tend, like all species, one thing we know is that we're here to be with each other.
671
You can try to look at it like we're not, we're not equal.
672
We provide equal value.
673
And men can do things that women simply can't.
674
You have like you...
675
Can I ask what?
676
What can men do that we can't?
677
I mean men build everything.
678
We don't.
679
Men protect us.
680
They fight wars.
681
We don't.
682
What do they protect us from?
683
Other men?
684
Women have always fought in wars.
685
Sure.
686
Women have built so many things.
687
So many things.
688
But in the world like the roles, the buildings, the architecture, men do all of that.
689
Men are the geniuses.
690
It's way more male geniuses than female geniuses.
691
That doesn't answer the question though.
692
The question was what can they do not what have they done?
693
Well, she's answering the question a little bit, but you're saying like they're more men geniuses.
694
They stopped us from reading.
695
They stopped us from going to school.
696
Okay, the first black woman lawyer wasn't allowed to practice law.
697
She got her law degree, but she wasn't allowed to even practice and be a lawyer.
698
They stopped us from this stuff.
699
But that's not what modern feminism is about.
700
That we have surpassed that already.
701
You guys can read.
702
You guys can vote.
703
You can do everything you want to do, and you keep making issues.
704
This is why you always talk about the patriarchy and capitalism.
705
You feed it.
706
Okay?
707
Why do you think that you are a feminist in the first place?
708
They wanted you to work.
709
That's what they wanted you to do.
710
They wanted two people in a household to work versus one, right?
711
But you hate capitalism, but you serve it.
712
You would rather serve capitalism than serve your man, the man that was put here to protect you.
713
Yeah, but does your man make enough money so that you don't have to work?
714
This is my thing.
715
These are, if we're talking about family units, These are two people.
716
They get to decide what happens in their unit
717
and reality is some men are not going to be able to provide All that they can talk about pressure.
718
I feel like feminism was good for men because it kind of relieved them of a little bit of pressure Did everybody?
719
Yeah, but it's made men so much more depressed than ever.
720
It's made them weaker I think they just like the fact
721
that now they see all women can be as good as us
722
because now that we're allowed Why do you have to be as we live in their world
723
and I'm saying because we live in this world with them where they are suppressing us.
724
Their bar is up here.
725
If our bar gets lifted, so does theirs.
726
Our bar gets lifted, so does theirs.
727
Why do women need to be less than men?
728
Women are not less than men.
729
They're different from men.
730
We provide equal value, but we're different.
731
It's no way that if you've got a man that's your age, your height, whatever, he's going and you race him, you're not going to beat him.
732
More times than not, they're going to dust you, which lets you know that you are not equal to them.
733
In what story?
734
Not in that way.
735
You're not equal.
736
They're stronger.
737
They have more logic.
738
You're more emotional.
739
It's just… To speak to the emotions, if I could maybe chime in here, right?
740
The idea that like men are less emotional than women.
741
It's like, well, what's the number one cause of crime?
742
Do you guys know like the actual perceiving factors?
743
Emotions.
744
Poverty.
745
It's actually impulsivity, right?
746
ADHD is one of the largest things that is in prison, right?
747
ADHD, impulsivity, right?
748
And drinking, right?
749
Men are highly addictive.
750
They're suiciding at a higher rate than women are.
751
The idea that men aren't emotional is again the type of prescriptive perpetuation that is bad for men.
752
Angers and emotions.
753
That's bad for men and it's bad for women.
754
Men are emotional, right?
755
Women are emotional in different ways.
756
You're right.
757
If you talk to, for example, a trans woman who's gone on estrogen, for example, a lot of negative emotions begin to emerge more specifically like sadness.
758
The issue is that we all act like logic devoid of emotion is wisdom.
759
But there's not even a historical precedent for this.
760
If you look back to some of the original writers of wisdom, you talk about the Spartans or the Athenians, they loved their feelings.
761
These Spartan men were so passionate about one another and the things that they fought for that they openly saw it.
762
That's what original stoicism is.
763
It's an acknowledgment of the feelings and a drive for action through it.
764
You take away a rat's ability to feel emotion, it starves to death in like a week because emotion drives all of us.
765
Men are more or less emotional.
766
They're all emotional.
767
The issue is that, yeah, they have testosterone.
768
They're always going to lift things heavier than I am.
769
That's why they're disproportionately represented in labor fields.
770
But the issue is that A, technology has balanced those things, and B, the idea that men are just better.
771
Men just by and large because of X and Y have a little bit more dimorphism at the ends.
772
They might perform really high here.
773
They're also disproportionately represented in some of the most disabled individuals, some of the most addicted individuals, some of the most homeless individuals, right?
774
And so this idea that we're like putting women below men because we tend to be kind of, I would argue, more balanced creatures, I think is disserving both of us.
775
I don't think that's what she said.
776
But we're not putting women under men.
777
I was talking about this earlier, where we're always constantly obsessing over this hierarchy.
778
I hear it from feminists a lot where it's like, oh, men aren't better, women are under.
779
Like the book, The Second Sex.
780
This hasn't come from women who are happy being mothers or anti-feminist, anti-suffragettes.
781
They're not saying that.
782
It's always the feminists that are saying this.
783
So I'm just like, why are y'all so obsessed with trying to be men?
784
Why can't you just be good women and enjoy the roles that we're supposed to play, which is mother.
785
A mother.
786
Because a man can't fill the mother role.
787
That's why.
788
So I just don't understand what the problem is and why you guys are trying to be men.
789
Wait, is that the only role?
790
We're not trying to be men.
791
Is that the only role we play though, is mom?
792
That's it?
793
No, I just threw a role, like, you know what I mean?
794
I just threw a role out there that man cannot fill.
795
I think I'm the most masculine one here.
796
I'm not trying to be a man.
797
I'm just more questioning, like, what it is, what is being a woman?
798
Like, what is that gonna look like for me?
799
And it's not that I think that I'm better than men, it's just, like, even just saying, like, men are more logical.
800
It's like, I think men have been taught that their emotions are logic.
801
They're not, it's not that they're more logical.
802
They're not better decision makers.
803
They're not the ones running our households.
804
It's women that are running the households, you know?
805
I would say.
806
If you see households that are led by women versus single households that are led by men, men do a better job raising children by themselves.
807
Single households led by women are creating YNs that are in the Black community.
808
Women do that.
809
Men provide structure.
810
They provide discipline.
811
And that's within the woman, too.
812
So men sound like great mothers.
813
Is anyone on this side passionate about this particular prompt and would like to speak on it?
814
to say something with respect to the lesbian because I can't identify,
815
but I think the flaw with feminism is the expectation that we are supposed to be the same at all.
816
I think we understand and we appreciate we are not better or worse.
817
We are not equal.
818
We are equal value, but we're very different.
819
And I think there's a natural biology that often gets overlooked, especially if you've raised boys,
820
you will see from the womb they are just different.
821
And I think when we try to put them together and say anything you can do, I can do better, we're setting ourselves up for failure.
822
And you made a comment earlier about women are better in every way than men.
823
And the question that I would have is— I didn't say that.
824
I'm sorry.
825
You said something about— I didn't say anything close to that.
826
I agree with you that I think the sexist— No, honestly, the men versus women sex thing, I think it's silly.
827
I think these traits, human traits are human traits.
828
Some were nurtured more in this person.
829
Some were nurtured.
830
Like my dad being a stay-at-home dad, he was a much better mother than my mother was.
831
I am so sorry, mom, if you see this.
832
But he was.
833
He just was.
834
He was a better mom than she was.
835
And sometimes that's the case.
836
Forget the gender role stuff.
837
And like these are all human traits.
838
You either are a gentle, nurturing, organized person who wants to take care of a kid or you're not.
839
And that doesn't go man, woman and that goes person.
840
And I will say, not every woman is a mother.
841
Not every woman should be a mother.
842
And not everyone, right.
843
But I would just say this, find me the society of women that are doing it by themselves.
844
I would love to see it.
845
Exactly, it doesn't exist.
846
Why though?
847
Because we are not able to sustain it.
848
We live in a safe, civil society because the men have made an agreement amongst themselves to not blow it all up.
849
Thank you.
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About This Lesson
In questa lezione, praticherai l'inglese ascoltando e ripetendo un dialogo intenso tra donne femministe e anti-femministe. Imparerai a seguire conversazioni complesse, capire argomenti controversi e migliorare la tua pronuncia grazie alla tecnica del shadowspeaks. È un'ottima occasione per esercitare la pratica di conversazione in inglese e familiarizzare con espressioni usate in discussioni reali.
Parole e Frasi Chiave
- Privileges (privilegi): "Women have more privileges today than men" (Le donne hanno più privilegi oggi degli uomini).
- Custody (custodia): "Men are more likely to receive custody of their children" (Gli uomini hanno più probabilità di ottenere la custodia dei figli).
- Lenient (indulgente): "Courts tend to be lenient to them" (I tribunali tendono ad essere indulgenti con loro).
- Presumptions (presupposti): "Stereotypical presumptions of how women have to be" (Presupposti stereotipati su come le donne devono essere).
- Negotiate (negoziare): "If they try to negotiate, they'll be seen as caustic" (Se cercano di negoziare, sono viste come acide).
Consigli per la Pratica
Il video ha un tono animato e una velocità media, perfetto per il shadowspeak. Ecco come procedere: ascolta un frammento di 5-10 secondi, poi ripetilo immediatamente, cercando di imitare l'intonazione e la velocità. Concentrati sulle pause tra le frasi, specialmente nelle risposte veloci. Se trovi difficoltà con le parole lunghe (come "stereotypical"), ripetile più volte separatamente prima di inserirle nel contesto. Ricorda: il goal è non solo capire, ma anche migliorare la pronuncia inglese e sentirsi a tuo agio nelle conversazioni vivaci. Con la pratica regolare, noterai che le frasi ti verranno più semplici! Imparare l'inglese con i video è divertente e efficace: continua così, e soon parlerai come un native!
La grammatica di questo video
Le strutture che chi parla usa di più, con le parole esatte del video:
| Struttura | Nel video |
|---|---|
| Present perfect continuous have/has been + -ing — un’azione iniziata prima e ancora in corso | We've really been enjoying · you've been enjoying |
| Frasi condizionali if + frase, will/would + verbo — una condizione e il suo risultato | if they try to negotiate, they'll be |
| “Used to” used to + verbo — un’abitudine o uno stato passato che non è più vero | used to be |
| Present perfect have/has + participio passato — un’azione passata che conta ancora adesso | have been socialized · have been taught · we've done |
Cos'è la tecnica dello Shadowing?
Shadowing è una tecnica di apprendimento delle lingue supportata da studi scientifici, originariamente sviluppata per la formazione dei traduttori professionisti e resa popolare dal poliglotta Dr. Alexander Arguelles. Il metodo è semplice ma potente: ascolti un audio in inglese di madrelingua e lo ripeti immediatamente ad alta voce — come un'ombra che segue il parlante con un ritardo di solo 1–2 secondi. A differenza dell'ascolto passivo o degli esercizi di grammatica, lo shadowing costringe il tuo cervello e i muscoli della bocca a elaborare e riprodurre simultaneamente i modelli di discorso reale. La ricerca dimostra che migliora significativamente la precisione della pronuncia, l'intonazione, il ritmo, il discorso connesso, la comprensione dell'ascolto e la fluidità del parlato — rendendolo uno dei metodi più efficaci per la preparazione alla prova di speaking dell'IELTS e per la comunicazione reale in inglese.