쉐도잉 연습: Jonathan Anderson in conversation with Bella Freud - YouTube로 영어 말하기 배우기

So here we are in the Jardin des Tuileries, three days before your show.

Three days before the show.

It's being constructed over there.

Right behind you, yes.

I was reading about your thoughts, the things that informed you about the show, and you immerse yourself a lot in art and poetry.

And I wondered, what are the are there things that you return to a lot?

Yeah, I think for me, I'm kind of a slight creature of habit sometimes.

It might not look the same, but I think maybe the kind of, the way in which I've got to it might be the same process for me.

So I think, for me, when I'm building like a character, I work with the same group of people.

So in a weird way, it's like a paintbrush or using the same people that you trust to kind of build the look.

This is kind of a weird collection because it's sort of, it's very daywear.

It’s more daywear for me.

And a bit more ready-to-wear.

It's been an interesting process, this one.

And sometimes I’m like, does that work or does it not?

You know, it's a strange feeling, this one.

So it’s either going to be really right or really wrong.

Well, there's something so luxurious about fashion in the day, and Paris is the place for that, to be really dressed up, whereas London is sort of the grunge centre, really.

And it's great to make clothes for those opportunities, I think.

Yeah. I love seeing people who have made an effort, and it must be wonderful to create for that.

Yeah, and I think that's what's quite interesting about parks somehow.

You know, historically Dior has always shown here.

I always think of pleasure gardens or even in Britain that you have this idea of the promenade, or people used to dress up to go somewhere.

And there's been something I've been quite fascinated with in that, this idea to dress up, and what does that mean today?

What we're trying to say about, you know, the psychology of people.

It's more about psychology now than status.

It used to be about how you would dress up for status purposes.

Now it's more about the psychology or what kind of clan you were part of.

Like what group were you part of, you know.

Because you were talking about Louis XIV having a code, that people who came into the park had to have a code for dressing to do with their rank in life.

Their rank.

And I wondered how important codes of dress are for you, because your own code is quite inscrutable.

For my own self, how I dress is more like a school uniform.

I went to school, I had a school uniform, so I need some sort of tight formula to work from.

But I like this idea of, you know, by staging the show here and looking at this idea of the promenade, this idea of the bridge, this idea of what is that day in the park?

You know, like what is that look in that singular moment?

Is this coat part of your code?

This is becoming… Because I’m wearing your coat, you're wearing your coat, and it feels like, you know, you were talking about liking some of my dad's paintings, and you even own some. And in the new show at the National Portrait Gallery, there's a lot of drawings of coats, a bit like the ones we're wearing, and the detail of the stitching and everything, and it's so evocative, and it's so meaningful to someone, you know, who's making clothes as well.

You know, that's what I've always loved in your father's pictures, is that you have this immediacy of the wearer or the sitter.

You can feel the closeness of texture or something in his images.

Or even himself, he had such great style.

He had such an amazing way of wearing, especially those amazing images with falcons.

And the kestrel, that is amazing.

I've always had that on my mood board.

Because I've always thought like that for me is just, like, I would want to look like that or something.

There's a poetry in that image, I always think.

And do you find a certain tension, that you look for a tension in like the works that you look at, or even the poems that you're interested in?

Yeah, I like things that I can get obsessed by.

Yeah. People that I can get obsessed by.

Sometimes I can get obsessed by a singular painting that is more that you fall in love with the sitter.

Or it can be the landscape, you know.

Sometimes it can be something where I'm like, how do you become part of that landscape?

How do you get to that final result?

Yeah. You're showing here in the Tuileries, and when you choose a setting for a show, is that something that happens early on, or does it come later to the story?

Usually the set comes first because of the time that it takes to work out the process to build it.

This one's kind of unfolded in a very weird way because I was struggling with the tent concept, because you end up being in a white box.

Yeah. And then I was like, we are in such a beautiful garden.

So this time we built a piece of architecture around something.

And it's this idea of what is fake, what is real.

You have the water fountain, which is real.

You've got the water lilies, which are fake.

Nearby, you've got the painting by Monet of water lilies, which is real.

I've always been kind of obsessed with that.

Like, what is real, what is not real?

Or how do you find a subtlety in… It's like these chairs.

I've always been really obsessed by these chairs, because I feel like it's the perfect example of the readymade.

You just represent it.

You know exactly you're in Paris.

You can show it out of context.

You know where you are from an object.

And I've always been kind of interested in objects that create iconography in that way.

Because you seem to have a particular talent for getting people to look again at sort of ordinary things, everyday things that they have looked at many times.

And you draw attention to them in a new way, or you recast them so that they suddenly become really meaningful.

And you know, it's such an intimidating place, this garden in the middle of France.

How do you feel as an Irish Englishman coming in here and taking possession of it?

Well, that's why I think you have to go to what is a level playing field.

I think that's what's interesting about the chair in the Tuileries is that it is for everyone to use.

It is not a hierarchy, it is for everyone.

And there's something quite humbling in that.

That's what I love when I walk home, when I walk through the Tuileries, it is a place of congregation and at the same time it is a place for reflection.

You know, that's why in the invitation there are two chairs.

It’s this idea that you are talking to someone or at the same time you can sit in isolation.

Yeah. And I quite like this as a backdrop to a show.

For me, this is Paris.

I always will feel like a tourist in Paris.

Sometimes being a tourist is quite good because you see the thing, you kind of edit.

I suppose it's a way of finding the things that attach you to a city, especially Paris, which is such a grand, and it's so composed.

And, you know, here you are coming into one of the biggest houses in the world, a fashion house.

You have to kind of take hostage.

You have to sort of invade, and then you're running the show and setting the tone.

The thing about Dior, sometimes it is, you know, for a designer, it's quite scary because the name is so hefty.

Yes. It is quite a big name.

And in a weird way, it's sort of like you're kind of taking the salon chair and you're swapping it for the garden chair.

And I think it's about playing on these odd realities to make yourself feel you're in this small brand even though it's not a small brand.

That’s so interesting that you bring it close to you in that way, and that's where you can start to build out.

Yeah. That’s fascinating.

It’s about bringing the audience closer because I'm, you know, as much as we have to, we will show to a thousand people, I'm always trying to think of how do you take it outside?

Like, how do we take it to people online?

And how do they experience it as well?

How do you get people involved in the process of it, you know.

And see the kind of vulnerability in it or see the grandeur of it or see the kind of craft in it, or… There are different ways to kind of get in, ultimately.

I suppose those are all the intimacies that you're creating.

I always think of Gulliver held down captive by thousands of tiny strands, and it's like, that's what you're creating.

People are being captivated in this love for all these different details that you bring to life within the collection.

And you're using a Donegal tweed in this...

Yeah. This is one of my favourite fabrics in history.

I love that. And it's like, you know, it's very chic when a French woman uses the materials from another country or another sort of movement or whatever.

I think for me that was like, how do I bring my own self into the brand?

And I come from Ireland.

For me it was a fabric that I was so used to having blankets in, in the car.

You know, you’d always have these Donegal blankets and they were incredibly itchy.

Or like, these sweaters that were very itchy.

So for me, what I love about a Donegal tweed is that you have something which looks kind of mundane from afar, but when you get close to it, there’s like thousands of colours in it.

There’s like little tiny bits of colour.

And I think this always reminds me of where I grew up, because in a weird way, it’s the grey.

It’s very green or grey.

But then in it, you start to see these tiny fragments of colour somehow.

And you made a new colourway.

Yeah. For this show we did a yellow, a kind of strange yellow, a weird beige and a purple.

Mhm. And it's quite nice because you just, by subtly changing just little tiny bits, they become very radically different as a piece.

That sounds so beautiful, because French women know how to accessorise in a way that English women certainly are always rather envious of.

And so the idea of like, what kind of jewellery or heel And so the idea of like, what kind of jewellery or heel or anything that someone would wear with Donegal is an exciting concept.

Yeah, because it's quite a tough fabric.

So in a weird way, when you play with jewellery on it, you need something which is either quite transparent or something which is actually incredibly bejewelled.

Because then it kind of like, it really contradicts from it.

And you're showing in the round with this collection.

And I wondered, when you think about the models walking out and the impact of what you've created will have on the audience, how is it different from a straight catwalk?

And do you want to bamboozle the audience, in a way, with these kind of multiple experiences?

Well, first of all it was because there was a fountain in the middle, it was a constraint.

But I always like, for example, I love theatre in the round.

I always, obviously the Globe.

It brings the audience closer to something, because everyone is viewing it from the same angle.

So everyone's looking in.

Yeah. And I quite like this idea of watching the singular of this like, this girl walking across a bridge.

You’re just looking at this thing from afar, and then you, as it comes into the room, it confronts you, you know.

It’s sort of interesting.

Oh that’s wonderful.

It’s like a magnet at the centre of it.

It's fantastic.

And it pulls you in.

And I think it's sort of spotlights something, you know.

It's like when you go to the Globe, you always have that feeling that the actor is so much closer than it really is.

I'd never taken in, of course, that everyone is the same distance, Yeah. because… But now you say it.

It's really a spellbinding concept.

And it just, I think what it does is there's no interruption, when the character appears.

Yeah. No, I'm really excited about the set because it's sort of, I've never done a set like this.

So it’s sort of quite, it's quite exciting this part.

And I wondered, do you choose music to create modernity around such a historic brand as Dior?

And does that choice guide people almost to be more daring in how they dress?

Music can be really crucial.

I always believe that music can either make you love a show or hate it, love the look or dislike the look.

Yeah. Sometimes I like music either that goes with it.

Sometimes I like music that can kind of contradict a look to kind of maybe take the historicalness out of it.

Or sometimes I like to be literal, where it's like evoking a kind of, you're forcing an emotion.

Yeah. It depends on the show, ultimately.

What’s the music of Water Lilies then in this?

I wanted it to feel this moment as if you were walking transiently through a garden and you are picking up sounds that became slightly techno.

You know, like you're kind of picking the sounds up and then they become softened.

So they’re fast sounds, but they’re like, they soften out.

When you see water lilies, what I think is always fascinating is that they're very poised.

They're quite, these things are like, they hover on the surface of water.

And when they flower, it's quite miraculous.

You can see why Monet was so obsessed.

They distort reflection within water because they create this idea of solidity in it.

So I was trying to get that feeling in the music.

Let's see. We're on the second edit of the music, so hopefully it will be ready soon.

It's always interesting because it's like, as a viewer, you see another aspect of the designer's personality and they're kind of almost like they're craving how to include this other part of life that lives… Which is soundscape.

And in a weird way, fashion and music have always gone together.

Like it's always had an affinity.

You know, the great composers had great style or they had, um, you know, an occasion, or occasion wear.

There was a sort of formality.

When you think of Bach or you think of what we know of what these people looked like in terms of paintings or in terms of etchings, you get this idea that music and the art of dressing have always been there.

I suppose it's such a big influence on aesthetic, isn't it?

Like anyone from Bach to Keith Richards or, you know, Cameron Winter.

And it's interesting because a friend of mine really got me into Sondheim, who obviously did “Sunday in the Park with George”, which is based on Seurat, the painter.

That's obviously this moment captured by Seurat.

And then it's then turned into music, and then, you know, then it becomes a...

And there is something about this idea of a melting pot of how music, fashion, culture, how it all kind of falls in and in a way then can be the painting as well.

It can come just from a painting.

I suppose, with that Seurat painting, all those tiny little moments, you know, all those dots and those shimmers, they almost look like notes.

I'd never heard “Sunday in the Park with George” and I became completely obsessed about it.

No, I've never heard it.

I’m going to listen to that.

It's a fantastic musical. Fantastic.

And how do you know when something's done?

Because I always remember my father used to invite the painter Frank Auerbach over to… When he thought he'd finished a painting, he'd invite Frank over and say, I think it's done.

What do you think?

And I wondered how you know that moment.

I work with Ben, so I have the equivalent of Frank somehow.

I trust Ben implicitly, and he's someone who works with me throughout the process.

And Ben is very decisive.

He will decide when there can be no more added.

And the great thing about fashion shows is that there is always a deadline.

Yeah. So you have no choice but to be done.

That's the thing that I love about fashion the most, is that there is always this moment of finish and rejection.

And you are forced to move on.

I know, it's a wonderful thing.

It's the thing that people imagine is the worst thing, but actually it's the best because the quicker you can make a decision, the quicker that can get wired into your system, and cut that kind of… The cycle of it.

The cycle, yeah.

And then it forces you to renew.

And I think that is what I am always on the search for, is that you kind of relish the process right up to the very end, and then you break the cycle again to start over.

You know, to really try to find another language.

You're always in search of finding what the subtle combinations are that make something new.

And I really believe that fashion is a parallel language.

Sometimes you can show things better than you can speak them.

I always find, with the team, it's always at the very end when you have to do the press release.

I always struggle with this idea of how do you turn it into a press release.

This is the part that I really, I find really, really difficult because it's sort of you're ending up trying to force language onto something which is visual.

You can almost say anything.

It doesn't really have to be about what you did, but you can just somehow give it a kind of crazy title, like they do in red tops or something, that is just attractive and it's thrilling.

And then out comes all the consideration that you have created and applied, yeah.

And with Ben, how do you… You know, being the head of everything creative that comes from Dior, that is quite an unnerving thing with everybody saying yes.

Ben is my rock and my “no” guy.

He's the person who tells me no.

Yeah. And someone who I trust.

I think you have to find someone in life that you trust, who can say or challenge you in a way that makes you not become lazy, I think, in idea and in process.

But at the same time understands the way in which you are wired.

We do a tremendous amount of work, and the teams are doing tremendous amounts of work, but at the same time, you've got to kind of condense all this into a singular 65 looks or 85 looks.

And that is a kind of process of conflict and love for what you're doing.

Ben is very good at trying to put these things together.

It's wonderful to have such a trusted person in your work, and someone who reminds you of your own North Star, because, I mean, I've watched you, I met you when you were still at fashion college, and I remember you made me this lovely kind of scarf that was a… Yes, like a tube.

Yes, it was so beautiful.

And I've just watched how you have pursued your vision.

I know it's such a kind of overused phrase, but it was like you were burning with this, and now you're showing it on this world stage, and it's just such a beautiful thing to see.

But it's the same feeling.

As much as it's Dior or wherever I've worked or been at, it's a very small act in the end for me because in the end it's like, I have to take this entire amazing group of people, a singular vision of like what I'm thinking or what it's going to be, or what me and Ben are trying to put together.

And then you have to put it down a catwalk.

And in the end, no matter how big or small the brand is, it's either good or not good.

You're trying to find how to make it better for yourself and the dialogue with the consumer.

So it's this very kind of intimate process of editing.

I don't think the process has ever changed for me since the very beginning, because I think it's just, there's just more of it, you know.

But I have to apply that to every single detail that I do.

Yeah. Well, you're a master at it, Jonathan.

Thank you very much.

And thank you very much for being here.

And I can’t wait to see what you show us all.

Let’s hope the weather is good and not too windy.

But no, thank you very much for coming.

It's lovely to be here with you anyway.