Shadowing Practice: Ep529 - Michael Connelly - How to Write Every Day - Learn English Speaking with Video

Hello and welcome to the bestseller experiment where we continue to discover what makes a bestseller and inspire you to start, finish and publish your book.

I'm Mark Stay.

And I'm Mark DeVoe.

And we'd like to firstly thank all of our incredible patrons and academates who are making this podcast possible.

The five years we've been going now.

And if you're interested in joining the academy, the bestseller academy is open now for new applicants and you can get in for 2022.

And talking of five years, Mark, it was five years ago, almost to the day that we last had Mr. Michael Connolly on this podcast.

Yes, it popped up on my Facebook memories as a treasured memory.

So I'm very happy about that.

But yes, a very, very special guest.

Where do we start?

I mean, Michael Connolly is the bestselling author of 36 novels, one work of nonfiction.

Over 80 million copies of his book sold worldwide, translated into 45 languages.

One of the most successful writers working today, won countless awards, including the CWA's Diamond Dagger.

His book Bloodwork was directed by Clint Eastwood.

Matthew McConaughey was Mickey Hallor in The Lincoln Lawyer.

He's been number one so many times we actually lost count.

He's also executive producer of Bosch and Amazon Studios' original drama series, based on his best -selling character harry bosch starring titus welliver bosch streams on amazon prime video

and he's also the creator

and host of the podcast murder book he's also a gentleman who is very generous with his time

and advice for new writers as we discovered

when we first had him on the podcast five years ago

but some incredible things have happened since not least his latest novel the dark hours ladies

and gentlemen folks please be upstanding for mr michael connolly welcome

to the show sir how are you today i'm doing good

thanks for uh having me back i thought you didn't want me back sooner in five years

but that i'll take you five years and

and michael the last time you're on the show you may

you may may remember this you are i think you you just done a book signing

and you're on you're in london

and a certain mr stay managed to somehow wangle a ride

with you in your cab for 15 minutes between uh oh

what i want to know is did he did he actually

end up paying the fare for you in the end or did he just disappear now.

I think he jumped out while I was still moving.

Yeah, rolled out onto the pavement.

You've got a fantastic new book out, The Dark Hours, which is a Ballard and Bosch novel.

You've got two of your great characters working together.

You've got a killer striking on New Year's Eve, which I love because you've got this built -in ticking clock.

What I love about this, as with all your previous books, you write them as a chronicle of our times.

There's references to the pandemic, social unrest, low morale, and the LAPD.

I know the LA rights have loomed over all the Harry Bosch books.

So what were the big challenges with this story, particularly, you know, you're looking at the role of the police these days, we've got Black Lives Matter and issues such as that.

How much of that is boiling in your mind as you're creating a novel like this?

Well, it's there a lot.

But I guess the challenge is to not let

that overpower the story

because you know at the end of the day it's about this character renee ballard

and and to a second degree uh harry bosh

but it's a ballard narration and um

so you're riding with her through these stories and all those things

that you mentioned

which in my opinion add up to the title the dark hours um it's the dark hours of american policing

if you ask me um and um you know you want to have

that in there because that's what's happening and i've done

that all along so why change after 35 novels

that are reflecting what's happening in the real world in the year they're published um i wasn't going to change

that so so first of all i had to include this to some degree

and then it was just about like turning it into an advantage making these things

unfortunately

which in real life they are obstacles to good police work

you know this the low morale basically you know most of the police force mailing it in

and then you have a character like Ballard who's you know her hallmark is being relentless

when she's on a case and so this is just one more obstacle

that she has to get through and so

that in a way I turn it to my advantage

because it makes me it lets me show what kind of character she is that she's not

being pulled into this quicksand into this malaise that she's still fighting the good fight and you know so

if you can use a real thing that's going on in society as an obstacle

and you show how she gets through it I think you're you're connecting it to the reader because most of that

People who read this book have not solved murders or caught rapists,

but they can connect on that level of fighting the good fight to get through every day in what has been, at least in the last year or so, some dark times.

A lot of writers often are very kind of worried about timestamping their books in terms of events that are happening.

What advice would you have for them, Michael?

Because obviously, you know, just looking at the beginning of Dark House, there's lots of references to COVID and wearing masks and the like.

And that really connected for me.

How important is it for you to kind of use your

books as almost like historical time points as well in terms of what's happening in the world?

Well, I mean, every writer has to make that call, you know, and there's writers that are doing fabulous work where their characters never age

and you can't really tell what time it is, time of year, that kind of thing.

And and that's fine.

It's kind of like what's that saying?

Whatever floats your boat, you know, do what you want to do.

I came to this from 14 years in journalism and, you know, I'm a journalist at heart, I think.

And so I use that.

I report on what's going on.

And, you know, maybe it's a small ball thing like the police department,

but maybe it's a bigger thing like society beyond the stretches of Los Angeles um

that floats my boat to spend a year include like reflecting on what's going on right outside my window

or right on the other side of the tv the news screen um

and that keeps me plugged in as a writer i'm not saying everybody has to do

that and you also have to think um

that was very nice of you to say

that connected you to my books right away

but some people are reading right now reading is up book sales are up you know around the world

because of covid it's a pandemic more people are at home

and more people are uh deciding to get back into reading

but maybe they're trying to get away from covid

and then they get in this uh into my book

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and on the second page some guy's pounding on her door uh the window of her car

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and he's not wearing a mask and they won't roll the window down

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so it's very clear in this book we're in the real world

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and you know my top advice is just keep your head down

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and write the story you want to write

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but you might want to step back and say do people want to read

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that I didn't do that step back I just decided to do what I always do

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and that's reflect what's going on in the world in the

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year the book's published you used a word to describe Ballard they uh relentless

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which uh is a word that came up in our previous interview

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and it was your it's one of the greatest pieces of advice

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that you've given to writers one we've repeated over and over again, which is to be relentless, to never give up.

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And as Mr. D will tell you, it inspired us to do something very special.

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Yeah.

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Back in the original interview we did, Michael, with you, we talked about your writing habits and you talked about how you, you know, when you're working on something, you're writing every day, even if it was 15 minutes.

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And we launched actually, we kept hearing this from many, many successful authors and we launched a writing challenge called the 200 word a day writing challenge

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and the idea was is that just 15 minutes a day do 200 words

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and and it's inspired over two 20 million words written over the last year so

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so just to show you like some of the little things

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some of the little bits of advice you dropped into the last um interview have inspired

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so many writers to write and and people are absolutely

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so firstly massive thank you for for that advice is

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that something that you know it's something you still do

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when you're working on a project is this right everyday mentality

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this relentlessness is it still part of your work yeah it is and um

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because i'm involved in some tv shows based on my books sometimes it's hard to get the 15 minutes

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but but i stick to that rule

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and i'm i can't remember exactly what i said on

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that show five years ago but you know

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that was advice passed to me uh from a teacher um

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when I was at the university um and uh

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and that's it's really served me well and

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and I probably said this on the show it's

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because it keeps the story going in your head it's not

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really about the 15 minutes at your keyboard it's about what went into your thinking

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and your creative processes before you got to the 15 minutes

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and and so I think it's you know it was passed on to me

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and um uh i pass on to you i've talked about it a lot

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and and it's funny

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because you know um as mark said the um the uh

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the people connect to relentlessness we want to be relentless

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and fierce in whatever we're doing and

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so i write about these detectives i think those two words uh describe bosh

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and ballard pretty well but you know and i think people can connect on

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that level because we want to be you know whatever you do whether you're a writer

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or something else you want to be relentless at it and so i think that's a

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a good uh connecting point um to to uh for me

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to have said five years ago i'm surprised i said something uh

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that seems smart does that does that come does

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that relentlessness come from your journalism background

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because it's it's you know it's very easy to be fobbed

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off as a journalist no comment whatever you you have to

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keep knocking on doors picking up phones uh pursuing a lead Is that where that comes from?

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Yeah.

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And I was fortunate.

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I got out of the business before it really kind of downsized because of basically news consumption moving to the internet.

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So when I was in the business, it was pretty fat and happy and profitable.

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And I worked in cities where there were competitive other newspapers.

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So I did it for 14 years and it was competitive

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that whole time and so that does keep you moving

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and it does keep you knocking on doors and

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or making the extra call trying to get something

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that you know the other guy across the street

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and the other newspaper didn't get and uh

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so yeah there's there's i think

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that is where i got a lot of my work ethic

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and possibly the the idea of going at this in a relentless um manner you know know, because if you're writing a book,

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you know, some people are fast writers, I think I am, but you know, even if it takes a year, there's something built in that's leisurely about that.

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Like, you know, if you have a bad day, you can say, well, I got, you know, 300 more days before my deadline.

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You need something else that powers you through.

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And maybe it's the story, maybe it's the character that you just can't wait every morning to write about that.

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Or, you know, but you got to find a means of um of turning on

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that that dna that relentless dna on that on

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that note michael um maybe using the the dark hours as an example

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so many books now into your career what do you most love

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and enjoy about the process now of writing well i love the exploration of character especially

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because i come back to characters and

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so every time it's like uh the the question

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or the challenge is what what's new this time uh

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because a character if you're doing serious stuff you can't the character can't be static

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but the book something new has to come out

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so that's that's the main thing but i often look for things

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that um just intrigue me or i find

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that are neat about like this city los angeles or something like

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that in the dark hours there's a whole strand of investigation involving streetlights.

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And it's all based on real stuff.

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And that was a reporter in me.

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I went and looked into this because in Los Angeles, there's so many, there's no uniformity in streetlights.

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You can go two blocks and the streetlights look different.

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And so I started exploring that and found a way of connecting it to a clue path for Ballard.

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And so, you know, So it's not a big thing in the book, but when I, you know, I'm already past that book,

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you know, I finished writing it almost a year ago and I'm on to the next one.

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So when I look back and I have a real good, which I think serves me, amnesia when it comes to when I move on to the next book, I'm in that tunnel.

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I'm in that and that's all I'm thinking about.

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And so it's weird because I'll be well into a book

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and then the previous book is published and I'm doing things like the best bestseller experiment and so forth.

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And I have to remember that book I wrote and I've kind of blanked it out.

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And so when I look back on this book, I've been doing a few interviews in the last week,

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that keeps coming up how much fun that was to research and to go into neighborhoods,

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take photos, go to the Bureau of Street Lighting in Los Angeles, things like that.

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So usually there's a plot element that really plugs me in

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and then let the priority or the main element is what am I going to do

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if the character is assigned that's different.

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Talking of tunnels, Michael, what point does the L .A cop dramas become called gridlocked

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and they can't catch any criminals because they're just sitting in traffic?

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Is it pretty bad right now?

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Well, you know, it was amazing.

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This place is amazing in the middle of a pandemic when you could go anywhere in like 10 minutes.

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And now it's pretty much back to usual. But it's funny.

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I always say Los Angeles is a very tough place to visit, but it's better if you live here.

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You appreciate it more.

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and one of the things you learn is how to get around um

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and so that you're not sitting on a freeway that's not moving um you know not everyone can do

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that or no and not everybody has that facility but

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and i have a job that's lucky where i don't have

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a routine like i have to drive somewhere at nine every day or something but That's it.

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you know you make do with what you got and um

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and you know i really love this city and uh i'm lucky

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that in my job where i work from home i'm going out to do research or meetings

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or whatever i'm doing um i can i can i can

220

kind of control my world in terms of traffic uh where others can't dark hours is another crossover with bellard and bosch

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and i know mickey haller's in interacted with these characters too

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you've created a michael connelly universe you know long before the marvel cinematic universe made it fashionable did

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that come organically or was it something you planned

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or was there a point where you thought i should do this

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and make this bigger definitely was no plan um you know

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you i wrote the harry first harry bosch book not even known

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if it would be published

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so I wasn't thinking like 30 years later I hope I'm writing about this guy

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because I'm coming up on 30 years

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and January is 30 years is the first and so

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that you can't have that kind of foresight

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but the one thing I did was um name him Harry

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Bosch really Hieronymus Bosch I named him after a painter that

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that did works of art

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that had all kinds of stuff going on in all corners of the paintings

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and you know and and the signature work is called the garden of earthly delights

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and and that was really why i named them bosh

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because of that painting

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and i i viewed los angeles as kind of the modern

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day garden of earthly delights with all of its temptations and all of its fall failings and fallings and so

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that at you know at some point uh back basically four books in i quit being a journalist

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because I had signed a contract that I knew I could go about three

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or four years just writing books and I either make it or break it in those four years.

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And so that was when I started thinking about an overall mosaic where all these stories would be interconnected.

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The Bosch books don't stand separately from the Lincoln lawyer books or the Jack McAvoy books.

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On some level, all my books are connected um some very minor in minor ways

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but some in quite large ways with character crossovers and

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so forth so it was about four

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or five books in where i thought well

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if i can keep doing this this is what i should

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do um you know show a city that's evolving the characters might be different

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but the city's always la and and

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so it's really i'm going to show this city evolving write

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a book a year set in the year it's published

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and um almost like a anthropological study of a city

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and then these characters are attached to that um that portrait

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and um you know yeah i just i just got lucky

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but you know i think you know like i keep bringing up this 30 years thing

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you know it's i think it's a pretty good uh pretty decent 30 year study of the city

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yeah how are you keeping track of that because you spoke of

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that amnesia which i can relate to

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if you're trying to think back to what you wrote two books ago it's difficult

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but when you're writing it i i are you do you have some sort of database

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or reference you can go to to say oh hang on did this character actually do this thing back then

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or or do you just rely on your memory for

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that i pretty much rely on memory

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and then you know um there'll be enough people to let you know

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if you get something wrong on the internet

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but no I don't have any kind of master database I kind of wish I did

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but like I said nothing is really planned you know um and

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so like to keep a database would be to indicate I

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knew this was going to go on for 30 years

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and I just did not um

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but I've had I've only had two copy editors over 30 years

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and and and the first one started kind of like the Bible where she collected all these facts

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and then the next one carried it on from there

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so I'll turn in a book every time I turn in a book

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and they'll say well actually in this book you said this about this person

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or this person had green eyes not brown you know

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that kind of thing and so I'm lucky that

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that I don't have to spend a whole lot of time worrying about

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that stuff because someone will will find out for me

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and also i have a kind of an internet researcher um

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who part of his job is to have all my books in digital format

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and i can just tell him do this do a keyword search through all my books for this thing

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and see what i've written about it before and and

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that works pretty well as you know for me as as well wow 30 years michael let's just stop

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and take a breath for a minute and reflect on that that's pretty phenomenal

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what point during those 30 years would you say that things changed for you?

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Because I know for many authors listening to this, you know, they dream of reaching the level that you have and the audience that you have.

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But what point in those 30 years, can you remember like a specific moment where you thought, this is actually really taking off?

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Like readers are really engaging.

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This could be for real.

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Can you, can you, I had some markers, you know, I'm not an overnight success by any means,

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but my first four books had incremental growth, so I didn't have a downturn.

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And they were all Bosch books.

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And then I was able to, as I said, quit my day job as a journalist.

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And I knew I could go three or four years unless things continued to progress and I could go even further.

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But so I decided to sit on leaving the business of journalism.

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I'd write about a journalist.

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So my fifth book was called The Poet, and it was a straight out thriller.

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I know publishers have a hard time figuring out how to market um a series fiction

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because like it's the fourth harry bosch book jump on the

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train now people are predisposed i mean you don't you know

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you don't go see uh the third harry potter movie first you know what i mean

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so so they always have an issue with that

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and that's what i sensed early on and um so

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when i gave him this thing that was unconnected at

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that point later on in a sequel I would connect it to Harry the Harry Bosch books

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but this stood by itself and

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and it was a pretty good fast -moving thriller I believe

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and if you give that to the publishing machine they know what to do with it

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so so that one really increased my profile tremendously and

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so then I was suddenly on another plane and

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so I would my pattern became write a Bosch book

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and then write something new and so there's about a four

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or five book period there where I was alternating Bosch

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and something new and and that just kept pumping up my my sales

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and my level and everything and

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so it was probably I mean again it wasn't real fast

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but in 2006 so halfway through my current career basically I published The Lincoln Lawyer

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and And and that book really did well.

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And that was that I thought that was like, I'm going to be able to do this for the rest of my life.

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And so that was a very significant moment.

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When when you look back on the last 30 years, do you sometimes pinch yourself as to what's happened with your career?

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Does it does does it feel real to you?

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No, it feels very surreal because, again, you can't see any of this happening.

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I mean, I don't think a lot of people go into writing books thinking like I'm going to be wealthy

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and I'm going to do they do it because they want to tell stories.

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And that's why I did it.

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You know, I never foresaw anything like this.

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I always thought I'd have a day job.

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You know, I always thought I'd be a reporter and this would be stuff I do on the side.

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So so, yeah, it's been an amazing journey me a couple of years ago on the Bosch TV show, we didn't adapt the books in order.

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We took, we took them, we took what we needed, like, because like the first season, we really wanted to have Bosch on an emotional journey.

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So we used the book that spoke to that more so.

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And so it was four or five seasons in before we got to adapting my first book, The Black Echo. And

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that book opens um before we meet harry bosch we have

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a preface kind of where um a kid named sharky nicknamed

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sharky happens to be um a witness to a murder

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and then we meet bosch and bosch catches that murder

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and he looks for sharky as the witness so when i

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so that was the very first chapter the very first book i wrote

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and when i wrote it i had no idea

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if i'd ever get published so 20 about 24 years later they're filming

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that scene and that was just

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that was just an amazing night uh to think you know

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and i just walked around by myself i usually am very collegial with all the people working on the show

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but i was on the outskirts just watching them film this

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because it really hit me like what a what a journey it's been

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and an unexpected journey now here i am almost a quarter

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century after i wrote five pages i didn't think anyone other than my wife

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and mother might be the only ones to read now they're filming it all these years later it was pretty strange

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pretty strange trip it's been bosh on uh prime was arguably i think the first really big

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streaming hit made for streaming here i worked at orion at the time

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and i know i had to explain to some of them

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what streaming was they were like well i have to watch it on a laptop it's like no no, this is this is this is going to be great.

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It's now Prime's longest, longest running series. And it's so cinematic.

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Each episode looks like a movie as it's just fantastic quality to it.

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Could you have imagined what it what it's now become?

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No, I mean, you can, you know, my whole career is I can't imagine.

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And this is just one one section of it that also is beyond.

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But, you know, I also I give myself credit because, as you said, no one knew what this was.

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I happen to be, I'm an insomniac.

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And so I happen to be an early adapter of streaming and Amazon before they made any shows, you could go on there and watch old movies off in the night and that kind of thing.

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And I love streaming, you know, it's watching when you want to watch what you want to watch.

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And so when they came around and offered to do it with Bosch, it was going to be their first one hour drama.

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They had one other show, a half hour comedy.

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And so it was a risky thing and

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so many people said what what are you doing and um

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but i knew because it was in its infancy

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that we were going to be let alone to do what we wanted to do

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and uh and

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that was the key to our success i think um amazon is quite different now they got dozens

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and dozens of shows they got dozens

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and dozens of people telling the showrunners what they want

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and all that but back in those early days amazon studios uh was two people

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that was it and one was always in meetings

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and the other one was the guy we talked to and

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that and we and he would just say okay sounds good

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when we said what we were going to do it's

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so different now but we got in early

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and by the time it changed we were already kind of established

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and you don't mess with something that's that's working and

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so it was actually it was a lot of fun to

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be in those early stages of uh the streaming bonanza it's

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almost like you're an original streaming uh original gangster in the streaming world

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because we were mark

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and i were talking before this interview about like just let's just future cast 200 200 years into the future

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and we're all long gone like

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when they look back at the history of how streaming started

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and and bosch is going to be right there and the fact

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that bosch was a great series obviously partly changed the course of streaming history i mean

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if both netflix and

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and amazon had gone with really bad shows to begin with maybe streaming would have never have happened

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so it's kind of interesting to reflect on

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and you ever thought about the kind of the bigger picture

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as to how the part the bosch plays in the history

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of what's happening in the world right now technologically wise yeah i mean i think yeah thank you for

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that i think you're giving us too much credit but um

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but but it was different tv it was different from what you saw on tv

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that was what was cool about it and uh you know the look

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and the quality it was like a mini movie every episode

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and so i think um it helped establish what you could do uh in streaming

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if you had the support of a studio you know it's not to say

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that amazon netflix don't make bad shows some of the shows are not

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that good but um you know so it really comes down to individuals

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and who you get on your team and things like

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that um you know

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so you a few minutes ago you said do i pinch myself I pinched myself a lot about things

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that just happened uh that were luck

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or I know I I'm a believer in that Mark Twain thing

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that the harder you work the luckier you get

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but I have had a lot of luck and I've worked hard

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but but still things had to happen I mean the whole look of Bosch is

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because we talked to a producer who had produced a lot of Michael Mann movies

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and was always traveling the world um never home that much

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and he he said like well tv is getting to be good now you know with uh hbo

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and sopranos and and so forth i want to get into tv

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and we got this guy and

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and he's like responsible for the look of the show

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and it looks like a michael mann film yeah um

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and uh you know and so that what a lucky break

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if we gotten somebody else we might not be talking about eight years of bosch you know

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and now you've got a uh a new series a spin -off series

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that you announced the other day the bosch legacy

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which i believe the first season is adapting the wrong side of goodbye is

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that correct yeah yeah we already filmed it uh we just finished filming

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and we're in post -production

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so that'll be out you know in the first i don't i don't have a date

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or anything in the first half of uh of the new

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year now obviously with all the success michael there's people out

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there writers out there thinking you know you probably show up every day

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and and the great words just flow

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but to just kind of humanize humanize your own situation there must still be days where you sit down

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and write and you think that's no good

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and it's in the bin does

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that happen often does it still happen yeah it happens it's gonna happen to everybody but you know,

439

it's, you know, the longer you do something, the better you are at it.

440

So I do think it happens less for me.

441

I have a better sense of what I'm doing as I go into every day of writing.

442

But also, I'm sure I talked about this, I'm, to me, everything happens after the first draft, you know, in rewriting, rewriting is everything.

443

And so if I do have a bad day, I just keep soldiering on and get through that bad day, because I know I'm going to come back to these words

444

and these pages and this chapter at least two

445

or three more times and you know and and i

446

and you know all writers are their own harshest critic

447

and you know if you have a rough patch

448

but you power through when you come back around on a rewrite you're going to recognize

449

that rough patch right away you're going to know this was oh this was

450

when i had those bad days or whatever

451

and then you you know put extra emphasis on making it better so i i don't get all concerned

452

excuse me i don't get all concerned

453

when i have a bad day i just soldier through

454

and know i'll be back to win the battle next time

455

i'm using all these war metaphors it makes it sound like

456

you know it's just me in a room by my with my laptop it's not that big a deal

457

we have some uh we have some listener questions for you michael

458

if you're happy and you know these are all about digging into into the craft

459

and um some of these covers stuff that we talked about last time

460

but i'm wondering if much has changed uh since we last spoke particularly now you've worked on tv

461

but christopher wills says um now

462

that your books have been filmed do you write with

463

that in mind and how does that manifest in your writing

464

so are you thinking of tv shows Or are you able to focus just on the novel as a thing in itself?

465

Yeah, I don't really think it's funny.

466

The TV show has influenced me in a great way, but not that way.

467

I don't write thinking this will be great when they adapt it or this will be a great movie or whatever.

468

I just don't think that way.

469

But I always thought visually anyway.

470

So I think my books are visual and that appeals to, you know, film and TV makers.

471

But that's the way I've always written.

472

But what's influenced me goes the other way.

473

On the TV shows, I mean,

474

the Bosch books, at least the first half of the Bosch books were all Bosch POV, Bosch centric.

475

You were in his head through the whole through every page.

476

And then you get on a TV show and you can't do that.

477

You have to spread the story out, storytelling out and build up lies of other characters.

478

And consequently, on the show, some of the characters have these rich, deep past and full lies.

479

And in my books, they're like paper, thin as paper.

480

And so we've improved the books in that regard.

481

But it's also taught me, I don't know if it's taught was the wrong word it's also influenced me in

482

that i'm doing more books where narrations are shared like bosh

483

and ballard and things like that um and i think that's a direct um influence from the tv show

484

excellent excellent stuff um also a question from christopher he says it appears from my research

485

that you don't plot a lot in advance

486

so before you start writing what do you need to know about the story you are about to write

487

so do you think that's an insult it appears i don't plot my books

488

right i think he means plotting in advance outlining in advance

489

so yeah no i i need the beginning

490

and end i i need to uh i i ruminate about stuff sometimes for years you know

491

and i have a you know

492

and i'm always thinking in terms of how book it begins

493

and and where it leads to And the middle part is what I don't plot out.

494

But again, it could be a matter of semantics.

495

You know, my first drafts are pretty,

496

they're really long and overwordy and need a lot of work.

497

And so you could say that is a very over -detailed outline.

498

And then from that, I sculpt out the book in the second and third go -throughs.

499

so you know that i know there's people

500

that outline in great detail there's people that don't outline

501

but at the end of the day there's some kind of framework

502

that you're attaching the story to and uh you know you know

503

so so when i say i don't outline

504

and i see what happens in the middle

505

that could be a form of outlining we chuckle michael

506

because we uh we once got some very wise advice from Ben Aronovich on the show.

507

when we discussed with him that we'd written a 50 ,000 -word album.

508

He said, that's a book.

509

He says, I write books shorter than that.

510

It's good to hear.

511

And how reassuring for the listeners to hear that Michael Connolly's first drafts need a lot of work.

512

That is just so heartwarming to hear that.

513

That's so relatable.

514

I mean, that connects with the prior question about hard, when you hit rough spots.

515

That's the first rep.

516

That's where you got a soldier through.

517

And, and so sometimes those are pretty ugly scenes and ugly pages.

518

And, but, you know, you know, maybe cause I've been doing it for 30 years and my confidence has grown a lot since the beginning.

519

I just, I just know I can make that stuff better.

520

Second or third time around.

521

And it's interesting cause books get shorter each, each I'm not adding i mean i add here

522

and there but overall i'm subtracting uh you know i really believe

523

that less is more when it comes to editing and

524

so i usually like write about 110 000 then it gets down to about 105

525

and then it gets down to like 98 or 100 when i turn it in

526

brilliant do you having having written so many books now michael do you have a specific

527

ritual way of celebrating finishing a book yeah by starting the next one

528

i thought you were gonna say that i really thought you're gonna say

529

that i don't i don't have a ritual

530

but in a way that's what happens

531

because i don't know i don't know why this is

532

but somehow when i'm on the the you know the final days i'm wrapping it up

533

and remember i usually don't start anything till i know how it's going to end

534

so by the time i'm really wrapping it up i somehow

535

i started getting thoughts about what i'm going to do next

536

and so i usually don't take breaks between books i usually take breaks between drafts of a book you know so like

537

if i was going to take a vacation it wouldn't be between books it would be between the first

538

and second draft of a book

539

so you don't plan around the kids holidays you plan around you plan around

540

when the when the book's finishing i used to have to try to deal with

541

that but i i wrote it on so many vacations i had one kid

542

and she's up and out of the house now older

543

and uh so now i everything's planned around me yeah it's interesting

544

that you say that you celebrate by starting a new book

545

because there is actually uh there's an excitement isn't there the the idea of starting something new

546

and the relentlessness of having to finish something you've been working on for

547

so long so i guess in a way

548

that is a reward a kind of a blank page where you can create something from scratch is

549

that really where that comes from yeah i think so i mean

550

because you get so deep and you know i usually do uh three drafts

551

and uh you're so deep into it

552

that it's it is like a breath of breath of fresh air it'd be just writing something else

553

and so rather than like write letters or

554

or catch up on stuff i've always tried to get the next book going

555

and sometimes this actually happened this year i i finished uh the dark hours

556

and started writing the next book right away

557

and i only wrote like two chapters of it then i um kind of slowed down

558

and got involved in television stuff and so forth and

559

and the uh velocity of writing on it slowed down a bit i got into

560

that 15 minutes a day thing fantastic fantastic we got a couple of questions

561

that are kind of similar so i'll ask them both

562

and then see what you think of this

563

so robin satis asks i would love to know how Michael keeps series characters fresh

564

and exciting and Ed Howard asks he says in terms of craft

565

and recommendations for character development when writing a series

566

or writing multiple books with the same protagonist

567

so like we said you've been at this 30 years now

568

um 30 years of Bosch um how how do you keep

569

that fresh and exciting and

570

and you know how are you how how how are you

571

keeping uh coming up with new challenges for these characters i

572

don't know i think it's like an instinctive thing i didn't there's no like procedure i do um

573

but i do have that rule which i've said a few times today um

574

that a character has can't be static um book the book

575

there's got to be something new i mean obviously it's the same person same dna

576

so you have you've already established things about this character in this book

577

but so in the next book you got to establish something new or something additional.

578

I always think in terms of my books moving forward and backward at the same time, you move forward the character through a case and what's going on in the present,

579

but you're always trying to fill in something about their past, you know, that's informing whatever's going on in the current story.

580

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

581

It's a hard thing to answer.

582

It's just, it's an instinctive thing saying things have to change.

583

You know, we see a lot of people that, I mean, not a lot of people, there's a lot of writers that are really good and then they stick with that,

584

that what they've done that's really good and don't want to change it up

585

because for fear that maybe people won't like it or something.

586

I don't know.

587

I hate speaking for other writers, but you can see some stuff in their work.

588

And I just feel that to keep people going with you, traveling with you on these stories and this character,

589

you know, things should change.

590

Like Renee Bauer, who's the protagonist of the new book.

591

I've only been writing about her about five years, I think, four books that she's in and you know

592

when we first meet her four

593

or five years ago she's she's sleeping in a tent on the beach

594

and when you meet her in the uh dark hours she has an apartment she's looking for a dog

595

um you know uh she's she's just a different person than she was

596

when we first met her five years ago i guess as well

597

because you're setting it in real world in real time the world is giving you challenges that you might not have.

598

I mean, if you said to your publisher, I'm going to put a pandemic into the background of a novel, they might have said, hang on, Michael, this isn't a science fiction novel.

599

I guess that kind of helps.

600

Yeah.

601

No, I mean, you can call that my crutch, that I get away without being a creative genius by just taking it from the real world.

602

And it's true.

603

I mean, again, I have a fancier way of saying that, and that is that I'm a journalist at heart

604

so i want to report on what's going on in the world

605

but you could flip that

606

and say you're just taking what's uh going on in the

607

real world real world you know to create your uh afflictions

608

and and uh obstacles on your character that's fascinating with with your journalistic background michael i mean

609

if you we always think about milestones and things

610

that happen in our lives that we don't know what

611

that will have the knock on effect will be

612

but do you look back at the journalism time of your life and think

613

if i hadn't been a journalist i may not have had

614

this career as an author yeah i mean that's one of those things

615

that can really freak you out because i know that's the case i know

616

when i'm what i've accomplished

617

or what i've got going is all founded in those years uh

618

because i spent so much time in police stations and with real detectives and

619

and just kind of gaining an experience

620

and a knowledge of how things work granted this was long before they even used dna

621

and all that so the world has changed

622

and i've had to keep up with it

623

but the basic it always can all the dna

624

and procedure all that's window dressing on character

625

and i think what i got was um character from from watching real people do this work

626

and i don't know if i would have gotten that

627

if um you know i was a english lit teacher you

628

know i took a different road every writer takes the road

629

that they need to take and i i needed to take

630

that road uh to be able to do what i'm doing

631

now to be sitting right here right now speaking of careers i've got another listener question from laura shepherd

632

and laura i know is uh practicing lawyer in the uk i think she's a barrister in the uk

633

so this is a nice technical question she's asking about you

634

know the mickey holla books uh how do you keep the tension

635

and mystery in the story when a court case is at the end of the investigation

636

when all of the evidence has been gathered so you know

637

in legal every kind of all the cards are on the table there how do you how do you keep

638

that tension going well i think there's built -in drama uh

639

because it all all

640

that stuff as she says it all ends up in this box the courtroom the stage

641

and it's a place where um you know character really prevails um

642

and you know the trick with writing fiction about it is

643

to hide evidence in other words have stuff not be known till it comes out in

644

that room in that box and and you know i I try to be as accurate as I can,

645

but the whole court system in almost every country is designed

646

so that when you go into that box and you finally go to trial, everyone knows everything.

647

And so the challenge is to figure out how to hide something from the reader or haul or hides from his opponent, that kind of thing.

648

Or it happens, it comes out of what the action is happening.

649

in the courtroom and so it becomes fresh a fresh new aha moment

650

but but when it comes to the the lawyer stuff

651

that is the big challenge i mean i think inherently the

652

stakes are really high in a trial there's a built -in tension

653

but you have to find ways of making of twisting it

654

and making it even more um full of tension by um

655

you know the actions of your characters do you approach the

656

storytelling in the Mickey Haller books different to the Ballard and Bosch books because of that legal procedure element to them.

657

Yeah.

658

Yeah.

659

I mean, I have that, often like a Bosch or Ballard book will come up, will come to me, you know, because of some kind of character thing I want to do.

660

It's occurred to me, it's time to do this with Ballard, put her in an apartment and

661

and make her vulnerable in a new way um with with uh hauler i have a good sense of

662

that character i think i got that character nailed down

663

but i'm usually

664

and i talked to a lot of defense attorneys two in

665

particular who were the models for hauler in the first place um are still practicing lawyers

666

and i still talk to them and i'm

667

and i often look for something that happens in

668

that box like tell me stories about when things went wrong

669

or when uh uh you know something surprised you in a courtroom

670

and i often build those stories from some kind of legal situation

671

so very much using the journalistic kind of approach and

672

that you're still interviewing a lot of people

673

and looking for where the threats and ideas so

674

that kind of really is carried on isn't it underneath oh yeah um i do

675

that all the time and you know i guess it's classified as research, but most of these people I've known for years and years, and they're social friends.

676

And, you know, it's not just, I'm not there with a notebook, like a reporter to tell me about this.

677

I'm usually having drinks, or I'm having breakfast, and you know, there's, there's socializing going on.

678

And then I'll ask a few of my questions.

679

But a lot of these people, you don't have to ask questions, they just tell you stories.

680

And then, you know, as I say, I'm not a creative genius

681

but i think i do have a genius for throwing out a net

682

and getting all kinds of stuff

683

and then i'm the guy who goes through the net

684

and decides this guy i throw this back over the into

685

the water this is an anecdote this is uh a runner

686

that could go maybe 50 pages or this is the book

687

that i can do i could build a whole book around this idea

688

and um and and you know

689

and that's the journalism um that's a procedure that's been with me since i was a journalist and

690

and that's really how i work i love it i love

691

it it's like uh it's like you're an actually a fisherman at heart

692

and that's the process in

693

which you can you can pull out all the the best catches

694

so to speak that's brilliant stuff i grew up in florida

695

and i did a lot of fishing

696

and you know i was actually even proficient in throwing a net for a little

697

while there but um but you you bring it up

698

and you dump it on the deck and you look through it

699

and make sure some stuff is even poisonous

700

or sharp um you know some stuff is great bait you know you kind of go through it

701

and you throw a lot overboard because it's not going to work for you but

702

but you keep other stuff excellent metaphor of the year folks

703

metaphor of the year i've got i've got one last uh

704

listed question from lynn clark she says i love the interaction between bosch

705

and holler any more of those on the horizon

706

yeah definitely i don't plan too far ahead like i know what i'm writing next

707

and it's going to be another uh i guess the dark hours you could call it ballard

708

and bosh because she's the protagonist the next one's going to be a bosh

709

and bauer because bosh will be the one

710

but yeah no i'm my answer to those kind of questions

711

is it really you're saying are you done with any of these characters

712

and i'm not so i i can definitely see where uh bosch

713

and holler will cross paths uh again some way wonderful wonderful stuff

714

and michael with the success of the books

715

and the number of books you've now written and the career

716

that you've had again reflecting on the 30 years is there anything

717

that you're still harboring to achieve within your career something different

718

or or you know a different angle or some different technology

719

that you're kind of looking at is anything there um not

720

really i mean the one thing i'm hoping to accomplish i've had two movies made on my books

721

but i had nothing to do with them and you know

722

and i got through unscathed in fact i think the lincoln lawyer movie is very good i really loved it and um

723

but i again i i was luck uh i picked the right producer basically to sell it to

724

and he did a good job with it and got all these good people involved, including Matthew McConaughey.

725

But again, I had nothing to do with it.

726

I'm very much involved in the TV shows I'm involved in that are coming from my books.

727

So I guess what's left off of my list of things I want to write is a film.

728

I like to write a film.

729

And so in more recent years, as I've been comfortable and happy with what's going on in the TV world,

730

I've been looking to do a film.

731

And and so I wrote a book a couple of years ago called Fair Warning, which is a reporter Jack McAvoy's series.

732

And so I'm working on a script for that for a producer.

733

And I'm hoping that possibly my final thing in Hollywood would be a film that I've written.

734

I love it.

735

I love it.

736

That's complete the reverse of Mark Stay here.

737

You started doing films and then wanted to write a book.

738

You're kind of crossing paths.

739

It's brilliant.

740

I'll see you at the movies fantastic wow okay shall we

741

wrap things up then I think we will Michael I I just want to say thank you

742

so much for being with us again five years on

743

and we promise we won't leave it another five until we speak to you again

744

but um we also just wanted to you know I think

745

it's really important we you know we we get to speak to some incredible authors um on this show

746

and it's really important I think to take a moment just to kind of acknowledge the career that you've had so far.

747

And not just, and obviously this is a writing podcast, I mean, the millions of readers who you've entertained for millions of hours,

748

whether it's through your books and whether it's through the TV shows and the movies.

749

But I also want to just acknowledge the millions or, I mean, millions, maybe thousands, definitely hundreds of thousands of writers that you've inspired,

750

because we all know as writers that we read a book

751

and we get inspired and want to write

752

so i just want to acknowledge and thank you on behalf of the writing community for

753

all those unknowns out there that you probably never heard of um of writers

754

that you've influenced or maybe some people have read one of your books

755

and they've written their first ever crime or thriller novel afterwards

756

so um thank you for all of the dedication

757

and work you've put in and that the value

758

that that's being felt by the writing community well thanks thanks for saying

759

that um it's interesting

760

that you know i've been inspired over my career by people i've never met you know just

761

because i've been inspired by their words and their writing

762

and uh so i know how that can work um and

763

so if my books have helped anyone

764

that that's great um it's a great um compliment

765

but what i like the most about what you said just now you said my career

766

so far so i appreciate that you think i still have some left

767

because i've been getting a lot of uh wow 30 years

768

and uh elder statesman or og um but um

769

but yeah i still feel like i have more to do

770

and maybe there'll be some more uh inspiration from that it's

771

when they start giving you lifetime achievement awards michael that's

772

when you need to you know just remind them there's plenty

773

more gas in the tank i was supposed to get one this year

774

which i was you know concerned about but left the convention was uh canceled

775

because of covid and and uh so so i haven't joined

776

that class of uh career achievement wrap -ups do you know

777

what the beauty about being a writer though michael is retirement

778

is a myth there's no such thing as retirement you can you can try

779

and stop writing but writing will never leave you

780

so we're certainly looking forward to all the extra books

781

that are coming our way from your writing desk Michael

782

so absolutely brilliant and best of luck obviously with the dark hours it's been it's out now folks

783

if you want to get a copy of it you know where to go and um

784

and Michael just one one last question for you is there

785

one piece of advice we asked you this last time I'm curious any piece of advice

786

that you've learned in the last five years you'd like to

787

pass on to writers um as some to keep people inspired

788

if they're really struggling right now um i would just i

789

kind of said it earlier um just keep your head down i mean that's my challenge now

790

because i'm involved in a bunch of different things from podcasts

791

and tv shows to books is to keep your head down

792

and you know write the story you want to write don't be

793

buffeted by the winds of uh what other people are doing you know don't lick your finger

794

and hold it up to the wind just keep your head down

795

and write your story fantastic advice folks if If you've been inspired by this episode, please spread the word, tell your writer friends, tell your Michael Connolly fan friends,

796

subscribe, rate and review to your podcatcher of choice.

797

So you can, and I'll put a link in the show notes

798

so you can check out our earlier episode with Michael as well.

799

And you can find us on social media at Bestseller Experiment.

800

Twitter

801

and Instagram is at bestseller xp michael you crop up on

802

uh i certainly i follow you on instagram certainly uh you're

803

on social media quite a bit aren't you yeah i have um i'm not

804

that good at it but i have i have instagram facebook

805

and twitter fantastic we'll put links to those in the show notes too

806

but yes the dark hours out now and look if

807

if this is the first time you've come across michael connelly you've got 36 other books out

808

that you are in for such a treat a whole world of page turning thrilling fiction there uh

809

which you absolutely love um michael thank you

810

so much for speaking to us today we really appreciate it thanks for having me brilliant

811

so it's a goodbye from mark one a goodbye from mark two goodbye goodbye

812

Are you ready to transform your writing and your life?

813

Join the 200 word challenge today.

814

In just five days, learn to develop a lifelong writing habit with over two hours of free expert coaching

815

and the encouragement of a vibrant community.

816

This program has already changed the lives of thousands of writers like you.

817

No matter how busy you are, this challenge will show you that with just 200 words a day, you can significantly boost your creativity,

818

productivity, mental health and confidence, propelling you towards the end.

819

For the first time, receive comprehensive coaching and step -by -step guidance all for free.

820

Transform your writing habit and start your journey to become the writer you've always aspired to be.

821

What are you waiting for?

822

823

To read Back to Reality, the best -selling novel of The Bestseller Experiment by The Two Marks,

824

go to bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash back to reality

825

and subscribe to this podcast to get loads of extra bonuses

826

go to bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash subscribe what are your writing dreams finishing

827

that book quitting the day job becoming a best -selling author since 2016 we've interviewed

828

and studied the advice of over 500 best -selling authors who've collectively sold over 1 billion books

829

and in the bestseller academy we've incorporated powerful and proven strategies for success,

830

inspiring fiction and non -fiction authors just like you to reach new heights and write their best book ever.

831

Ready to take your writing to the next level with accountability,

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craft, coaching, and the most inspiring and exclusive community of like -minded writers?

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Well, your bestseller dreams are just a click away.

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Join us today at bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash academy.

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That's bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash academy.

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Why Practice Speaking with This Video?

This video features a lively, conversational interview with bestselling author Michael Connelly, making it perfect for english speaking practice. The natural back-and-forth between the hosts and guest mirrors real-world dialogue, helping you master casual tone, follow-up questions, and storytelling flow. Whether you’re practicing shadow speech (repeating phrases aloud in real time) or refining your ability to discuss books and creativity, this clip offers relatable context—from anecdotes about book signings to deep dives into writing process. It’s a chance to mimic native speakers’ pacing and intonation, all while engaging with interesting content.

Grammar & Expressions in Context

Notice these key structures to boost your speaking skills:

"I think he jumped out while I was still moving." The past continuous ("was still moving") adds context to a past action, showing two events overlapping. Use this to clarify timing in stories.
"What I love about this, as with all your previous books..." "As with" is a concise way to compare similar situations. Try it in discussions: "As with most cities, public transport here can be busy."
"You may remember this—you just done a book signing..." The casual contraction "done" (instead of "had done") reflects spoken English’s informality. Note how native speakers simplify grammar in relaxed settings.

Common Pronunciation Traps

Mastering tricky sounds will elevate your english pronunciation. Watch for:

"Bestseller" – The "s" sound can blend into "t," making it "best-sell-er" (not "best-eller"). Practice stressing the first syllable.
"Connolly" – The name is pronounced "kuh-NAH-lee," not "KAH-nuh-lee." Listen for the short "u" and stressed second syllable.
"Wangle a ride" – "Wangle" (to get something through cleverness) has a soft "g" sound ("wang-gul"), not a hard "g."

Try shadow speak with short clips—pause, repeat, and match the hosts’ rhythm. You’ll build confidence in no time!

Grammar in this video

The structures the speaker uses most, with the exact words from the video:

Structure	In the video
Present perfect continuous have/has been + -ing — an action that started earlier and is still going on	we've been going · I've been doing · you've been working
Present perfect have/has + past participle — a past action that still matters now	have happened · have loomed · i've done
Passive voice be + past participle — the focus is on what happens, not who does it	was directed · being pulled · was passed
Relative clauses who / which + clause — extra information about a person or thing	Hours, which is · People who read · again, which is

What is the Shadowing Technique?

Shadowing is a science-backed language learning technique originally developed for professional interpreter training and popularized by polyglot Dr. Alexander Arguelles. The method is simple but powerful: you listen to native English audio and immediately repeat it out loud — like a shadow following the speaker with just a 1–2 second delay. Unlike passive listening or grammar drills, shadowing forces your brain and mouth muscles to simultaneously process and reproduce real speech patterns. Research shows it significantly improves pronunciation accuracy, intonation, rhythm, connected speech, listening comprehension, and speaking fluency — making it one of the most effective methods for IELTS Speaking preparation and real-world English communication.

Shadowing technique: read the full step-by-step guide →