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Hello and welcome to the bestseller experiment where we continue to discover what makes a bestseller and inspire you to start, finish and publish your book.
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I'm Mark Stay.
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And I'm Mark DeVoe.
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And we'd like to firstly thank all of our incredible patrons and academates who are making this podcast possible.
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The five years we've been going now.
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And if you're interested in joining the academy, the bestseller academy is open now for new applicants and you can get in for 2022.
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And talking of five years, Mark, it was five years ago, almost to the day that we last had Mr. Michael Connolly on this podcast.
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Yes, it popped up on my Facebook memories as a treasured memory.
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So I'm very happy about that.
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But yes, a very, very special guest.
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Where do we start?
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I mean, Michael Connolly is the bestselling author of 36 novels, one work of nonfiction.
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Over 80 million copies of his book sold worldwide, translated into 45 languages.
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One of the most successful writers working today, won countless awards, including the CWA's Diamond Dagger.
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His book Bloodwork was directed by Clint Eastwood.
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Matthew McConaughey was Mickey Hallor in The Lincoln Lawyer.
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He's been number one so many times we actually lost count.
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He's also executive producer of Bosch and Amazon Studios' original drama series, based on his best -selling character harry bosch starring titus welliver bosch streams on amazon prime video
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and he's also the creator
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and host of the podcast murder book he's also a gentleman who is very generous with his time
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and advice for new writers as we discovered
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when we first had him on the podcast five years ago
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but some incredible things have happened since not least his latest novel the dark hours ladies
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and gentlemen folks please be upstanding for mr michael connolly welcome
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to the show sir how are you today i'm doing good
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thanks for uh having me back i thought you didn't want me back sooner in five years
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but that i'll take you five years and
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and michael the last time you're on the show you may
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you may may remember this you are i think you you just done a book signing
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and you're on you're in london
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and a certain mr stay managed to somehow wangle a ride
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with you in your cab for 15 minutes between uh oh
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what i want to know is did he did he actually
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end up paying the fare for you in the end or did he just disappear now.
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I think he jumped out while I was still moving.
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Yeah, rolled out onto the pavement.
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You've got a fantastic new book out, The Dark Hours, which is a Ballard and Bosch novel.
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You've got two of your great characters working together.
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You've got a killer striking on New Year's Eve, which I love because you've got this built -in ticking clock.
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What I love about this, as with all your previous books, you write them as a chronicle of our times.
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There's references to the pandemic, social unrest, low morale, and the LAPD.
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I know the LA rights have loomed over all the Harry Bosch books.
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So what were the big challenges with this story, particularly, you know, you're looking at the role of the police these days, we've got Black Lives Matter and issues such as that.
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How much of that is boiling in your mind as you're creating a novel like this?
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Well, it's there a lot.
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But I guess the challenge is to not let
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that overpower the story
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because you know at the end of the day it's about this character renee ballard
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and and to a second degree uh harry bosh
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but it's a ballard narration and um
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so you're riding with her through these stories and all those things
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that you mentioned
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which in my opinion add up to the title the dark hours um it's the dark hours of american policing
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if you ask me um and um you know you want to have
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that in there because that's what's happening and i've done
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that all along so why change after 35 novels
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that are reflecting what's happening in the real world in the year they're published um i wasn't going to change
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that so so first of all i had to include this to some degree
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and then it was just about like turning it into an advantage making these things
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unfortunately
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which in real life they are obstacles to good police work
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you know this the low morale basically you know most of the police force mailing it in
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and then you have a character like Ballard who's you know her hallmark is being relentless
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when she's on a case and so this is just one more obstacle
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that she has to get through and so
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that in a way I turn it to my advantage
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because it makes me it lets me show what kind of character she is that she's not
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being pulled into this quicksand into this malaise that she's still fighting the good fight and you know so
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if you can use a real thing that's going on in society as an obstacle
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and you show how she gets through it I think you're you're connecting it to the reader because most of that
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People who read this book have not solved murders or caught rapists,
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but they can connect on that level of fighting the good fight to get through every day in what has been, at least in the last year or so, some dark times.
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A lot of writers often are very kind of worried about timestamping their books in terms of events that are happening.
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What advice would you have for them, Michael?
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Because obviously, you know, just looking at the beginning of Dark House, there's lots of references to COVID and wearing masks and the like.
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And that really connected for me.
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How important is it for you to kind of use your
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books as almost like historical time points as well in terms of what's happening in the world?
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Well, I mean, every writer has to make that call, you know, and there's writers that are doing fabulous work where their characters never age
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and you can't really tell what time it is, time of year, that kind of thing.
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And and that's fine.
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It's kind of like what's that saying?
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Whatever floats your boat, you know, do what you want to do.
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I came to this from 14 years in journalism and, you know, I'm a journalist at heart, I think.
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And so I use that.
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I report on what's going on.
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And, you know, maybe it's a small ball thing like the police department,
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but maybe it's a bigger thing like society beyond the stretches of Los Angeles um
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that floats my boat to spend a year include like reflecting on what's going on right outside my window
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or right on the other side of the tv the news screen um
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and that keeps me plugged in as a writer i'm not saying everybody has to do
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that and you also have to think um
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that was very nice of you to say
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that connected you to my books right away
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but some people are reading right now reading is up book sales are up you know around the world
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because of covid it's a pandemic more people are at home
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and more people are uh deciding to get back into reading
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but maybe they're trying to get away from covid
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and then they get in this uh into my book
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and on the second page some guy's pounding on her door uh the window of her car
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and he's not wearing a mask and they won't roll the window down
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so it's very clear in this book we're in the real world
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and you know my top advice is just keep your head down
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and write the story you want to write
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but you might want to step back and say do people want to read
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that I didn't do that step back I just decided to do what I always do
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and that's reflect what's going on in the world in the
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year the book's published you used a word to describe Ballard they uh relentless
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which uh is a word that came up in our previous interview
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and it was your it's one of the greatest pieces of advice
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that you've given to writers one we've repeated over and over again, which is to be relentless, to never give up.
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And as Mr. D will tell you, it inspired us to do something very special.
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Yeah.
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Back in the original interview we did, Michael, with you, we talked about your writing habits and you talked about how you, you know, when you're working on something, you're writing every day, even if it was 15 minutes.
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And we launched actually, we kept hearing this from many, many successful authors and we launched a writing challenge called the 200 word a day writing challenge
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and the idea was is that just 15 minutes a day do 200 words
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and and it's inspired over two 20 million words written over the last year so
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so just to show you like some of the little things
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some of the little bits of advice you dropped into the last um interview have inspired
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so many writers to write and and people are absolutely
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so firstly massive thank you for for that advice is
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that something that you know it's something you still do
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when you're working on a project is this right everyday mentality
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this relentlessness is it still part of your work yeah it is and um
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because i'm involved in some tv shows based on my books sometimes it's hard to get the 15 minutes
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but but i stick to that rule
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and i'm i can't remember exactly what i said on
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that show five years ago but you know
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that was advice passed to me uh from a teacher um
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when I was at the university um and uh
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and that's it's really served me well and
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and I probably said this on the show it's
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because it keeps the story going in your head it's not
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really about the 15 minutes at your keyboard it's about what went into your thinking
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and your creative processes before you got to the 15 minutes
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and and so I think it's you know it was passed on to me
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and um uh i pass on to you i've talked about it a lot
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and and it's funny
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because you know um as mark said the um the uh
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the people connect to relentlessness we want to be relentless
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and fierce in whatever we're doing and
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so i write about these detectives i think those two words uh describe bosh
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and ballard pretty well but you know and i think people can connect on
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that level because we want to be you know whatever you do whether you're a writer
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or something else you want to be relentless at it and so i think that's a
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a good uh connecting point um to to uh for me
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to have said five years ago i'm surprised i said something uh
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that seems smart does that does that come does
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that relentlessness come from your journalism background
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because it's it's you know it's very easy to be fobbed
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off as a journalist no comment whatever you you have to
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keep knocking on doors picking up phones uh pursuing a lead Is that where that comes from?
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Yeah.
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And I was fortunate.
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I got out of the business before it really kind of downsized because of basically news consumption moving to the internet.
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So when I was in the business, it was pretty fat and happy and profitable.
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And I worked in cities where there were competitive other newspapers.
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So I did it for 14 years and it was competitive
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that whole time and so that does keep you moving
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and it does keep you knocking on doors and
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or making the extra call trying to get something
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that you know the other guy across the street
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and the other newspaper didn't get and uh
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so yeah there's there's i think
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that is where i got a lot of my work ethic
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and possibly the the idea of going at this in a relentless um manner you know know, because if you're writing a book,
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you know, some people are fast writers, I think I am, but you know, even if it takes a year, there's something built in that's leisurely about that.
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Like, you know, if you have a bad day, you can say, well, I got, you know, 300 more days before my deadline.
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You need something else that powers you through.
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And maybe it's the story, maybe it's the character that you just can't wait every morning to write about that.
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Or, you know, but you got to find a means of um of turning on
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that that dna that relentless dna on that on
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that note michael um maybe using the the dark hours as an example
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so many books now into your career what do you most love
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and enjoy about the process now of writing well i love the exploration of character especially
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because i come back to characters and
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so every time it's like uh the the question
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or the challenge is what what's new this time uh
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because a character if you're doing serious stuff you can't the character can't be static
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but the book something new has to come out
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so that's that's the main thing but i often look for things
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that um just intrigue me or i find
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that are neat about like this city los angeles or something like
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that in the dark hours there's a whole strand of investigation involving streetlights.
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And it's all based on real stuff.
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And that was a reporter in me.
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I went and looked into this because in Los Angeles, there's so many, there's no uniformity in streetlights.
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You can go two blocks and the streetlights look different.
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And so I started exploring that and found a way of connecting it to a clue path for Ballard.
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And so, you know, So it's not a big thing in the book, but when I, you know, I'm already past that book,
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you know, I finished writing it almost a year ago and I'm on to the next one.
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So when I look back and I have a real good, which I think serves me, amnesia when it comes to when I move on to the next book, I'm in that tunnel.
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I'm in that and that's all I'm thinking about.
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And so it's weird because I'll be well into a book
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and then the previous book is published and I'm doing things like the best bestseller experiment and so forth.
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And I have to remember that book I wrote and I've kind of blanked it out.
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And so when I look back on this book, I've been doing a few interviews in the last week,
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that keeps coming up how much fun that was to research and to go into neighborhoods,
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take photos, go to the Bureau of Street Lighting in Los Angeles, things like that.
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So usually there's a plot element that really plugs me in
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and then let the priority or the main element is what am I going to do
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if the character is assigned that's different.
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Talking of tunnels, Michael, what point does the L .A cop dramas become called gridlocked
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and they can't catch any criminals because they're just sitting in traffic?
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Is it pretty bad right now?
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Well, you know, it was amazing.
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This place is amazing in the middle of a pandemic when you could go anywhere in like 10 minutes.
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And now it's pretty much back to usual. But it's funny.
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I always say Los Angeles is a very tough place to visit, but it's better if you live here.
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You appreciate it more.
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and one of the things you learn is how to get around um
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and so that you're not sitting on a freeway that's not moving um you know not everyone can do
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that or no and not everybody has that facility but
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and i have a job that's lucky where i don't have
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a routine like i have to drive somewhere at nine every day or something but That's it.
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you know you make do with what you got and um
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and you know i really love this city and uh i'm lucky
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that in my job where i work from home i'm going out to do research or meetings
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or whatever i'm doing um i can i can i can
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kind of control my world in terms of traffic uh where others can't dark hours is another crossover with bellard and bosch
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and i know mickey haller's in interacted with these characters too
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you've created a michael connelly universe you know long before the marvel cinematic universe made it fashionable did
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that come organically or was it something you planned
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or was there a point where you thought i should do this
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and make this bigger definitely was no plan um you know
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you i wrote the harry first harry bosch book not even known
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if it would be published
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so I wasn't thinking like 30 years later I hope I'm writing about this guy
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because I'm coming up on 30 years
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and January is 30 years is the first and so
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that you can't have that kind of foresight
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but the one thing I did was um name him Harry
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Bosch really Hieronymus Bosch I named him after a painter that
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that did works of art
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that had all kinds of stuff going on in all corners of the paintings
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and you know and and the signature work is called the garden of earthly delights
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and and that was really why i named them bosh
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because of that painting
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and i i viewed los angeles as kind of the modern
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day garden of earthly delights with all of its temptations and all of its fall failings and fallings and so
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that at you know at some point uh back basically four books in i quit being a journalist
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because I had signed a contract that I knew I could go about three
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or four years just writing books and I either make it or break it in those four years.
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And so that was when I started thinking about an overall mosaic where all these stories would be interconnected.
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The Bosch books don't stand separately from the Lincoln lawyer books or the Jack McAvoy books.
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On some level, all my books are connected um some very minor in minor ways
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but some in quite large ways with character crossovers and
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so forth so it was about four
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or five books in where i thought well
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if i can keep doing this this is what i should
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do um you know show a city that's evolving the characters might be different
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but the city's always la and and
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so it's really i'm going to show this city evolving write
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a book a year set in the year it's published
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and um almost like a anthropological study of a city
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and then these characters are attached to that um that portrait
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and um you know yeah i just i just got lucky
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but you know i think you know like i keep bringing up this 30 years thing
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you know it's i think it's a pretty good uh pretty decent 30 year study of the city
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yeah how are you keeping track of that because you spoke of
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that amnesia which i can relate to
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if you're trying to think back to what you wrote two books ago it's difficult
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but when you're writing it i i are you do you have some sort of database
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or reference you can go to to say oh hang on did this character actually do this thing back then
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or or do you just rely on your memory for
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that i pretty much rely on memory
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and then you know um there'll be enough people to let you know
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if you get something wrong on the internet
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but no I don't have any kind of master database I kind of wish I did
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but like I said nothing is really planned you know um and
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so like to keep a database would be to indicate I
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knew this was going to go on for 30 years
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and I just did not um
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but I've had I've only had two copy editors over 30 years
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and and and the first one started kind of like the Bible where she collected all these facts
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and then the next one carried it on from there
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so I'll turn in a book every time I turn in a book
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and they'll say well actually in this book you said this about this person
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or this person had green eyes not brown you know
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that kind of thing and so I'm lucky that
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that I don't have to spend a whole lot of time worrying about
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that stuff because someone will will find out for me
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and also i have a kind of an internet researcher um
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who part of his job is to have all my books in digital format
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and i can just tell him do this do a keyword search through all my books for this thing
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and see what i've written about it before and and
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that works pretty well as you know for me as as well wow 30 years michael let's just stop
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and take a breath for a minute and reflect on that that's pretty phenomenal
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what point during those 30 years would you say that things changed for you?
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Because I know for many authors listening to this, you know, they dream of reaching the level that you have and the audience that you have.
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But what point in those 30 years, can you remember like a specific moment where you thought, this is actually really taking off?
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Like readers are really engaging.
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This could be for real.
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Can you, can you, I had some markers, you know, I'm not an overnight success by any means,
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but my first four books had incremental growth, so I didn't have a downturn.
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And they were all Bosch books.
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And then I was able to, as I said, quit my day job as a journalist.
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And I knew I could go three or four years unless things continued to progress and I could go even further.
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But so I decided to sit on leaving the business of journalism.
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I'd write about a journalist.
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So my fifth book was called The Poet, and it was a straight out thriller.
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I know publishers have a hard time figuring out how to market um a series fiction
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because like it's the fourth harry bosch book jump on the
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train now people are predisposed i mean you don't you know
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you don't go see uh the third harry potter movie first you know what i mean
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so so they always have an issue with that
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and that's what i sensed early on and um so
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when i gave him this thing that was unconnected at
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that point later on in a sequel I would connect it to Harry the Harry Bosch books
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but this stood by itself and
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and it was a pretty good fast -moving thriller I believe
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and if you give that to the publishing machine they know what to do with it
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so so that one really increased my profile tremendously and
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so then I was suddenly on another plane and
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so I would my pattern became write a Bosch book
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and then write something new and so there's about a four
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or five book period there where I was alternating Bosch
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and something new and and that just kept pumping up my my sales
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and my level and everything and
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so it was probably I mean again it wasn't real fast
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but in 2006 so halfway through my current career basically I published The Lincoln Lawyer
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and And and that book really did well.
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And that was that I thought that was like, I'm going to be able to do this for the rest of my life.
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And so that was a very significant moment.
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When when you look back on the last 30 years, do you sometimes pinch yourself as to what's happened with your career?
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Does it does does it feel real to you?
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No, it feels very surreal because, again, you can't see any of this happening.
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I mean, I don't think a lot of people go into writing books thinking like I'm going to be wealthy
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and I'm going to do they do it because they want to tell stories.
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And that's why I did it.
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You know, I never foresaw anything like this.
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I always thought I'd have a day job.
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You know, I always thought I'd be a reporter and this would be stuff I do on the side.
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So so, yeah, it's been an amazing journey me a couple of years ago on the Bosch TV show, we didn't adapt the books in order.
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We took, we took them, we took what we needed, like, because like the first season, we really wanted to have Bosch on an emotional journey.
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So we used the book that spoke to that more so.
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And so it was four or five seasons in before we got to adapting my first book, The Black Echo. And
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that book opens um before we meet harry bosch we have
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a preface kind of where um a kid named sharky nicknamed
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sharky happens to be um a witness to a murder
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and then we meet bosch and bosch catches that murder
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and he looks for sharky as the witness so when i
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so that was the very first chapter the very first book i wrote
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and when i wrote it i had no idea
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if i'd ever get published so 20 about 24 years later they're filming
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that scene and that was just
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that was just an amazing night uh to think you know
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and i just walked around by myself i usually am very collegial with all the people working on the show
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but i was on the outskirts just watching them film this
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because it really hit me like what a what a journey it's been
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and an unexpected journey now here i am almost a quarter
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century after i wrote five pages i didn't think anyone other than my wife
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and mother might be the only ones to read now they're filming it all these years later it was pretty strange
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pretty strange trip it's been bosh on uh prime was arguably i think the first really big
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streaming hit made for streaming here i worked at orion at the time
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and i know i had to explain to some of them
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what streaming was they were like well i have to watch it on a laptop it's like no no, this is this is this is going to be great.
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It's now Prime's longest, longest running series. And it's so cinematic.
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Each episode looks like a movie as it's just fantastic quality to it.
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Could you have imagined what it what it's now become?
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No, I mean, you can, you know, my whole career is I can't imagine.
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And this is just one one section of it that also is beyond.
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But, you know, I also I give myself credit because, as you said, no one knew what this was.
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I happen to be, I'm an insomniac.
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And so I happen to be an early adapter of streaming and Amazon before they made any shows, you could go on there and watch old movies off in the night and that kind of thing.
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And I love streaming, you know, it's watching when you want to watch what you want to watch.
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And so when they came around and offered to do it with Bosch, it was going to be their first one hour drama.
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They had one other show, a half hour comedy.
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And so it was a risky thing and
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so many people said what what are you doing and um
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but i knew because it was in its infancy
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that we were going to be let alone to do what we wanted to do
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and uh and
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that was the key to our success i think um amazon is quite different now they got dozens
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and dozens of shows they got dozens
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and dozens of people telling the showrunners what they want
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and all that but back in those early days amazon studios uh was two people
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that was it and one was always in meetings
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and the other one was the guy we talked to and
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that and we and he would just say okay sounds good
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when we said what we were going to do it's
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so different now but we got in early
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and by the time it changed we were already kind of established
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and you don't mess with something that's that's working and
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so it was actually it was a lot of fun to
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be in those early stages of uh the streaming bonanza it's
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almost like you're an original streaming uh original gangster in the streaming world
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because we were mark
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and i were talking before this interview about like just let's just future cast 200 200 years into the future
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and we're all long gone like
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when they look back at the history of how streaming started
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and and bosch is going to be right there and the fact
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that bosch was a great series obviously partly changed the course of streaming history i mean
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if both netflix and
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and amazon had gone with really bad shows to begin with maybe streaming would have never have happened
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so it's kind of interesting to reflect on
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and you ever thought about the kind of the bigger picture
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as to how the part the bosch plays in the history
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of what's happening in the world right now technologically wise yeah i mean i think yeah thank you for
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that i think you're giving us too much credit but um
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but but it was different tv it was different from what you saw on tv
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that was what was cool about it and uh you know the look
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and the quality it was like a mini movie every episode
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and so i think um it helped establish what you could do uh in streaming
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if you had the support of a studio you know it's not to say
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that amazon netflix don't make bad shows some of the shows are not
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that good but um you know so it really comes down to individuals
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and who you get on your team and things like
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that um you know
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so you a few minutes ago you said do i pinch myself I pinched myself a lot about things
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that just happened uh that were luck
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or I know I I'm a believer in that Mark Twain thing
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that the harder you work the luckier you get
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but I have had a lot of luck and I've worked hard
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but but still things had to happen I mean the whole look of Bosch is
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because we talked to a producer who had produced a lot of Michael Mann movies
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and was always traveling the world um never home that much
418
and he he said like well tv is getting to be good now you know with uh hbo
419
and sopranos and and so forth i want to get into tv
420
and we got this guy and
421
and he's like responsible for the look of the show
422
and it looks like a michael mann film yeah um
423
and uh you know and so that what a lucky break
424
if we gotten somebody else we might not be talking about eight years of bosch you know
425
and now you've got a uh a new series a spin -off series
426
that you announced the other day the bosch legacy
427
which i believe the first season is adapting the wrong side of goodbye is
428
that correct yeah yeah we already filmed it uh we just finished filming
429
and we're in post -production
430
so that'll be out you know in the first i don't i don't have a date
431
or anything in the first half of uh of the new
432
year now obviously with all the success michael there's people out
433
there writers out there thinking you know you probably show up every day
434
and and the great words just flow
435
but to just kind of humanize humanize your own situation there must still be days where you sit down
436
and write and you think that's no good
437
and it's in the bin does
438
that happen often does it still happen yeah it happens it's gonna happen to everybody but you know,
439
it's, you know, the longer you do something, the better you are at it.
440
So I do think it happens less for me.
441
I have a better sense of what I'm doing as I go into every day of writing.
442
But also, I'm sure I talked about this, I'm, to me, everything happens after the first draft, you know, in rewriting, rewriting is everything.
443
And so if I do have a bad day, I just keep soldiering on and get through that bad day, because I know I'm going to come back to these words
444
and these pages and this chapter at least two
445
or three more times and you know and and i
446
and you know all writers are their own harshest critic
447
and you know if you have a rough patch
448
but you power through when you come back around on a rewrite you're going to recognize
449
that rough patch right away you're going to know this was oh this was
450
when i had those bad days or whatever
451
and then you you know put extra emphasis on making it better so i i don't get all concerned
452
excuse me i don't get all concerned
453
when i have a bad day i just soldier through
454
and know i'll be back to win the battle next time
455
i'm using all these war metaphors it makes it sound like
456
you know it's just me in a room by my with my laptop it's not that big a deal
457
we have some uh we have some listener questions for you michael
458
if you're happy and you know these are all about digging into into the craft
459
and um some of these covers stuff that we talked about last time
460
but i'm wondering if much has changed uh since we last spoke particularly now you've worked on tv
461
but christopher wills says um now
462
that your books have been filmed do you write with
463
that in mind and how does that manifest in your writing
464
so are you thinking of tv shows Or are you able to focus just on the novel as a thing in itself?
465
Yeah, I don't really think it's funny.
466
The TV show has influenced me in a great way, but not that way.
467
I don't write thinking this will be great when they adapt it or this will be a great movie or whatever.
468
I just don't think that way.
469
But I always thought visually anyway.
470
So I think my books are visual and that appeals to, you know, film and TV makers.
471
But that's the way I've always written.
472
But what's influenced me goes the other way.
473
On the TV shows, I mean,
474
the Bosch books, at least the first half of the Bosch books were all Bosch POV, Bosch centric.
475
You were in his head through the whole through every page.
476
And then you get on a TV show and you can't do that.
477
You have to spread the story out, storytelling out and build up lies of other characters.
478
And consequently, on the show, some of the characters have these rich, deep past and full lies.
479
And in my books, they're like paper, thin as paper.
480
And so we've improved the books in that regard.
481
But it's also taught me, I don't know if it's taught was the wrong word it's also influenced me in
482
that i'm doing more books where narrations are shared like bosh
483
and ballard and things like that um and i think that's a direct um influence from the tv show
484
excellent excellent stuff um also a question from christopher he says it appears from my research
485
that you don't plot a lot in advance
486
so before you start writing what do you need to know about the story you are about to write
487
so do you think that's an insult it appears i don't plot my books
488
right i think he means plotting in advance outlining in advance
489
so yeah no i i need the beginning
490
and end i i need to uh i i ruminate about stuff sometimes for years you know
491
and i have a you know
492
and i'm always thinking in terms of how book it begins
493
and and where it leads to And the middle part is what I don't plot out.
494
But again, it could be a matter of semantics.
495
You know, my first drafts are pretty,
496
they're really long and overwordy and need a lot of work.
497
And so you could say that is a very over -detailed outline.
498
And then from that, I sculpt out the book in the second and third go -throughs.
499
so you know that i know there's people
500
that outline in great detail there's people that don't outline
501
but at the end of the day there's some kind of framework
502
that you're attaching the story to and uh you know you know
503
so so when i say i don't outline
504
and i see what happens in the middle
505
that could be a form of outlining we chuckle michael
506
because we uh we once got some very wise advice from Ben Aronovich on the show.
507
when we discussed with him that we'd written a 50 ,000 -word album.
508
He said, that's a book.
509
He says, I write books shorter than that.
510
It's good to hear.
511
And how reassuring for the listeners to hear that Michael Connolly's first drafts need a lot of work.
512
That is just so heartwarming to hear that.
513
That's so relatable.
514
I mean, that connects with the prior question about hard, when you hit rough spots.
515
That's the first rep.
516
That's where you got a soldier through.
517
And, and so sometimes those are pretty ugly scenes and ugly pages.
518
And, but, you know, you know, maybe cause I've been doing it for 30 years and my confidence has grown a lot since the beginning.
519
I just, I just know I can make that stuff better.
520
Second or third time around.
521
And it's interesting cause books get shorter each, each I'm not adding i mean i add here
522
and there but overall i'm subtracting uh you know i really believe
523
that less is more when it comes to editing and
524
so i usually like write about 110 000 then it gets down to about 105
525
and then it gets down to like 98 or 100 when i turn it in
526
brilliant do you having having written so many books now michael do you have a specific
527
ritual way of celebrating finishing a book yeah by starting the next one
528
i thought you were gonna say that i really thought you're gonna say
529
that i don't i don't have a ritual
530
but in a way that's what happens
531
because i don't know i don't know why this is
532
but somehow when i'm on the the you know the final days i'm wrapping it up
533
and remember i usually don't start anything till i know how it's going to end
534
so by the time i'm really wrapping it up i somehow
535
i started getting thoughts about what i'm going to do next
536
and so i usually don't take breaks between books i usually take breaks between drafts of a book you know so like
537
if i was going to take a vacation it wouldn't be between books it would be between the first
538
and second draft of a book
539
so you don't plan around the kids holidays you plan around you plan around
540
when the when the book's finishing i used to have to try to deal with
541
that but i i wrote it on so many vacations i had one kid
542
and she's up and out of the house now older
543
and uh so now i everything's planned around me yeah it's interesting
544
that you say that you celebrate by starting a new book
545
because there is actually uh there's an excitement isn't there the the idea of starting something new
546
and the relentlessness of having to finish something you've been working on for
547
so long so i guess in a way
548
that is a reward a kind of a blank page where you can create something from scratch is
549
that really where that comes from yeah i think so i mean
550
because you get so deep and you know i usually do uh three drafts
551
and uh you're so deep into it
552
that it's it is like a breath of breath of fresh air it'd be just writing something else
553
and so rather than like write letters or
554
or catch up on stuff i've always tried to get the next book going
555
and sometimes this actually happened this year i i finished uh the dark hours
556
and started writing the next book right away
557
and i only wrote like two chapters of it then i um kind of slowed down
558
and got involved in television stuff and so forth and
559
and the uh velocity of writing on it slowed down a bit i got into
560
that 15 minutes a day thing fantastic fantastic we got a couple of questions
561
that are kind of similar so i'll ask them both
562
and then see what you think of this
563
so robin satis asks i would love to know how Michael keeps series characters fresh
564
and exciting and Ed Howard asks he says in terms of craft
565
and recommendations for character development when writing a series
566
or writing multiple books with the same protagonist
567
so like we said you've been at this 30 years now
568
um 30 years of Bosch um how how do you keep
569
that fresh and exciting and
570
and you know how are you how how how are you
571
keeping uh coming up with new challenges for these characters i
572
don't know i think it's like an instinctive thing i didn't there's no like procedure i do um
573
but i do have that rule which i've said a few times today um
574
that a character has can't be static um book the book
575
there's got to be something new i mean obviously it's the same person same dna
576
so you have you've already established things about this character in this book
577
but so in the next book you got to establish something new or something additional.
578
I always think in terms of my books moving forward and backward at the same time, you move forward the character through a case and what's going on in the present,
579
but you're always trying to fill in something about their past, you know, that's informing whatever's going on in the current story.
580
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
581
It's a hard thing to answer.
582
It's just, it's an instinctive thing saying things have to change.
583
You know, we see a lot of people that, I mean, not a lot of people, there's a lot of writers that are really good and then they stick with that,
584
that what they've done that's really good and don't want to change it up
585
because for fear that maybe people won't like it or something.
586
I don't know.
587
I hate speaking for other writers, but you can see some stuff in their work.
588
And I just feel that to keep people going with you, traveling with you on these stories and this character,
589
you know, things should change.
590
Like Renee Bauer, who's the protagonist of the new book.
591
I've only been writing about her about five years, I think, four books that she's in and you know
592
when we first meet her four
593
or five years ago she's she's sleeping in a tent on the beach
594
and when you meet her in the uh dark hours she has an apartment she's looking for a dog
595
um you know uh she's she's just a different person than she was
596
when we first met her five years ago i guess as well
597
because you're setting it in real world in real time the world is giving you challenges that you might not have.
598
I mean, if you said to your publisher, I'm going to put a pandemic into the background of a novel, they might have said, hang on, Michael, this isn't a science fiction novel.
599
I guess that kind of helps.
600
Yeah.
601
No, I mean, you can call that my crutch, that I get away without being a creative genius by just taking it from the real world.
602
And it's true.
603
I mean, again, I have a fancier way of saying that, and that is that I'm a journalist at heart
604
so i want to report on what's going on in the world
605
but you could flip that
606
and say you're just taking what's uh going on in the
607
real world real world you know to create your uh afflictions
608
and and uh obstacles on your character that's fascinating with with your journalistic background michael i mean
609
if you we always think about milestones and things
610
that happen in our lives that we don't know what
611
that will have the knock on effect will be
612
but do you look back at the journalism time of your life and think
613
if i hadn't been a journalist i may not have had
614
this career as an author yeah i mean that's one of those things
615
that can really freak you out because i know that's the case i know
616
when i'm what i've accomplished
617
or what i've got going is all founded in those years uh
618
because i spent so much time in police stations and with real detectives and
619
and just kind of gaining an experience
620
and a knowledge of how things work granted this was long before they even used dna
621
and all that so the world has changed
622
and i've had to keep up with it
623
but the basic it always can all the dna
624
and procedure all that's window dressing on character
625
and i think what i got was um character from from watching real people do this work
626
and i don't know if i would have gotten that
627
if um you know i was a english lit teacher you
628
know i took a different road every writer takes the road
629
that they need to take and i i needed to take
630
that road uh to be able to do what i'm doing
631
now to be sitting right here right now speaking of careers i've got another listener question from laura shepherd
632
and laura i know is uh practicing lawyer in the uk i think she's a barrister in the uk
633
so this is a nice technical question she's asking about you
634
know the mickey holla books uh how do you keep the tension
635
and mystery in the story when a court case is at the end of the investigation
636
when all of the evidence has been gathered so you know
637
in legal every kind of all the cards are on the table there how do you how do you keep
638
that tension going well i think there's built -in drama uh
639
because it all all
640
that stuff as she says it all ends up in this box the courtroom the stage
641
and it's a place where um you know character really prevails um
642
and you know the trick with writing fiction about it is
643
to hide evidence in other words have stuff not be known till it comes out in
644
that room in that box and and you know i I try to be as accurate as I can,
645
but the whole court system in almost every country is designed
646
so that when you go into that box and you finally go to trial, everyone knows everything.
647
And so the challenge is to figure out how to hide something from the reader or haul or hides from his opponent, that kind of thing.
648
Or it happens, it comes out of what the action is happening.
649
in the courtroom and so it becomes fresh a fresh new aha moment
650
but but when it comes to the the lawyer stuff
651
that is the big challenge i mean i think inherently the
652
stakes are really high in a trial there's a built -in tension
653
but you have to find ways of making of twisting it
654
and making it even more um full of tension by um
655
you know the actions of your characters do you approach the
656
storytelling in the Mickey Haller books different to the Ballard and Bosch books because of that legal procedure element to them.
657
Yeah.
658
Yeah.
659
I mean, I have that, often like a Bosch or Ballard book will come up, will come to me, you know, because of some kind of character thing I want to do.
660
It's occurred to me, it's time to do this with Ballard, put her in an apartment and
661
and make her vulnerable in a new way um with with uh hauler i have a good sense of
662
that character i think i got that character nailed down
663
but i'm usually
664
and i talked to a lot of defense attorneys two in
665
particular who were the models for hauler in the first place um are still practicing lawyers
666
and i still talk to them and i'm
667
and i often look for something that happens in
668
that box like tell me stories about when things went wrong
669
or when uh uh you know something surprised you in a courtroom
670
and i often build those stories from some kind of legal situation
671
so very much using the journalistic kind of approach and
672
that you're still interviewing a lot of people
673
and looking for where the threats and ideas so
674
that kind of really is carried on isn't it underneath oh yeah um i do
675
that all the time and you know i guess it's classified as research, but most of these people I've known for years and years, and they're social friends.
676
And, you know, it's not just, I'm not there with a notebook, like a reporter to tell me about this.
677
I'm usually having drinks, or I'm having breakfast, and you know, there's, there's socializing going on.
678
And then I'll ask a few of my questions.
679
But a lot of these people, you don't have to ask questions, they just tell you stories.
680
And then, you know, as I say, I'm not a creative genius
681
but i think i do have a genius for throwing out a net
682
and getting all kinds of stuff
683
and then i'm the guy who goes through the net
684
and decides this guy i throw this back over the into
685
the water this is an anecdote this is uh a runner
686
that could go maybe 50 pages or this is the book
687
that i can do i could build a whole book around this idea
688
and um and and you know
689
and that's the journalism um that's a procedure that's been with me since i was a journalist and
690
and that's really how i work i love it i love
691
it it's like uh it's like you're an actually a fisherman at heart
692
and that's the process in
693
which you can you can pull out all the the best catches
694
so to speak that's brilliant stuff i grew up in florida
695
and i did a lot of fishing
696
and you know i was actually even proficient in throwing a net for a little
697
while there but um but you you bring it up
698
and you dump it on the deck and you look through it
699
and make sure some stuff is even poisonous
700
or sharp um you know some stuff is great bait you know you kind of go through it
701
and you throw a lot overboard because it's not going to work for you but
702
but you keep other stuff excellent metaphor of the year folks
703
metaphor of the year i've got i've got one last uh
704
listed question from lynn clark she says i love the interaction between bosch
705
and holler any more of those on the horizon
706
yeah definitely i don't plan too far ahead like i know what i'm writing next
707
and it's going to be another uh i guess the dark hours you could call it ballard
708
and bosh because she's the protagonist the next one's going to be a bosh
709
and bauer because bosh will be the one
710
but yeah no i'm my answer to those kind of questions
711
is it really you're saying are you done with any of these characters
712
and i'm not so i i can definitely see where uh bosch
713
and holler will cross paths uh again some way wonderful wonderful stuff
714
and michael with the success of the books
715
and the number of books you've now written and the career
716
that you've had again reflecting on the 30 years is there anything
717
that you're still harboring to achieve within your career something different
718
or or you know a different angle or some different technology
719
that you're kind of looking at is anything there um not
720
really i mean the one thing i'm hoping to accomplish i've had two movies made on my books
721
but i had nothing to do with them and you know
722
and i got through unscathed in fact i think the lincoln lawyer movie is very good i really loved it and um
723
but i again i i was luck uh i picked the right producer basically to sell it to
724
and he did a good job with it and got all these good people involved, including Matthew McConaughey.
725
But again, I had nothing to do with it.
726
I'm very much involved in the TV shows I'm involved in that are coming from my books.
727
So I guess what's left off of my list of things I want to write is a film.
728
I like to write a film.
729
And so in more recent years, as I've been comfortable and happy with what's going on in the TV world,
730
I've been looking to do a film.
731
And and so I wrote a book a couple of years ago called Fair Warning, which is a reporter Jack McAvoy's series.
732
And so I'm working on a script for that for a producer.
733
And I'm hoping that possibly my final thing in Hollywood would be a film that I've written.
734
I love it.
735
I love it.
736
That's complete the reverse of Mark Stay here.
737
You started doing films and then wanted to write a book.
738
You're kind of crossing paths.
739
It's brilliant.
740
I'll see you at the movies fantastic wow okay shall we
741
wrap things up then I think we will Michael I I just want to say thank you
742
so much for being with us again five years on
743
and we promise we won't leave it another five until we speak to you again
744
but um we also just wanted to you know I think
745
it's really important we you know we we get to speak to some incredible authors um on this show
746
and it's really important I think to take a moment just to kind of acknowledge the career that you've had so far.
747
And not just, and obviously this is a writing podcast, I mean, the millions of readers who you've entertained for millions of hours,
748
whether it's through your books and whether it's through the TV shows and the movies.
749
But I also want to just acknowledge the millions or, I mean, millions, maybe thousands, definitely hundreds of thousands of writers that you've inspired,
750
because we all know as writers that we read a book
751
and we get inspired and want to write
752
so i just want to acknowledge and thank you on behalf of the writing community for
753
all those unknowns out there that you probably never heard of um of writers
754
that you've influenced or maybe some people have read one of your books
755
and they've written their first ever crime or thriller novel afterwards
756
so um thank you for all of the dedication
757
and work you've put in and that the value
758
that that's being felt by the writing community well thanks thanks for saying
759
that um it's interesting
760
that you know i've been inspired over my career by people i've never met you know just
761
because i've been inspired by their words and their writing
762
and uh so i know how that can work um and
763
so if my books have helped anyone
764
that that's great um it's a great um compliment
765
but what i like the most about what you said just now you said my career
766
so far so i appreciate that you think i still have some left
767
because i've been getting a lot of uh wow 30 years
768
and uh elder statesman or og um but um
769
but yeah i still feel like i have more to do
770
and maybe there'll be some more uh inspiration from that it's
771
when they start giving you lifetime achievement awards michael that's
772
when you need to you know just remind them there's plenty
773
more gas in the tank i was supposed to get one this year
774
which i was you know concerned about but left the convention was uh canceled
775
because of covid and and uh so so i haven't joined
776
that class of uh career achievement wrap -ups do you know
777
what the beauty about being a writer though michael is retirement
778
is a myth there's no such thing as retirement you can you can try
779
and stop writing but writing will never leave you
780
so we're certainly looking forward to all the extra books
781
that are coming our way from your writing desk Michael
782
so absolutely brilliant and best of luck obviously with the dark hours it's been it's out now folks
783
if you want to get a copy of it you know where to go and um
784
and Michael just one one last question for you is there
785
one piece of advice we asked you this last time I'm curious any piece of advice
786
that you've learned in the last five years you'd like to
787
pass on to writers um as some to keep people inspired
788
if they're really struggling right now um i would just i
789
kind of said it earlier um just keep your head down i mean that's my challenge now
790
because i'm involved in a bunch of different things from podcasts
791
and tv shows to books is to keep your head down
792
and you know write the story you want to write don't be
793
buffeted by the winds of uh what other people are doing you know don't lick your finger
794
and hold it up to the wind just keep your head down
795
and write your story fantastic advice folks if If you've been inspired by this episode, please spread the word, tell your writer friends, tell your Michael Connolly fan friends,
796
subscribe, rate and review to your podcatcher of choice.
797
So you can, and I'll put a link in the show notes
798
so you can check out our earlier episode with Michael as well.
799
And you can find us on social media at Bestseller Experiment.
800
Twitter
801
and Instagram is at bestseller xp michael you crop up on
802
uh i certainly i follow you on instagram certainly uh you're
803
on social media quite a bit aren't you yeah i have um i'm not
804
that good at it but i have i have instagram facebook
805
and twitter fantastic we'll put links to those in the show notes too
806
but yes the dark hours out now and look if
807
if this is the first time you've come across michael connelly you've got 36 other books out
808
that you are in for such a treat a whole world of page turning thrilling fiction there uh
809
which you absolutely love um michael thank you
810
so much for speaking to us today we really appreciate it thanks for having me brilliant
811
so it's a goodbye from mark one a goodbye from mark two goodbye goodbye
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Are you ready to transform your writing and your life?
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To read Back to Reality, the best -selling novel of The Bestseller Experiment by The Two Marks,
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go to bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash back to reality
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and subscribe to this podcast to get loads of extra bonuses
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go to bestsellerexperiment .com forward slash subscribe what are your writing dreams finishing
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that book quitting the day job becoming a best -selling author since 2016 we've interviewed
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Para quem é esse vídeo?
Se você é um aprendiz de inglês intermediário ou avançado, focado em melhorar a prática de conversação em inglês e a fluência, esse vídeo é perfeito. Ele traz uma conversa natural entre entrevistadores e um autor renomado, com ritmo moderado e vocabulário diversificado, ideal para treinar shadow speech (imitação de fala) e se acostumar com expressões coloquiais usadas em contextos profissionais e informais.
Palavras e expressões para roubar (e usar!)
- Wangle a ride: Conseguir uma carona de forma esperta ou informal. Exemplo: "Ele wangled a ride com o autor após o evento".
- Popped up: Surge inesperadamente. Exemplo: "A memória do encontro popped up no Facebook".
- Loomed over: Pesar ou influenciar de forma significativa. Exemplo: "Os protestos loomed over a história do personagem".
- Boiling in your mind: Ser pensado intensamente. Exemplo: "As questões sociais estavam boiling in his mind ao escrever o livro".
Como acertar o sotaque nesse vídeo
O Michael Connelly fala com um sotaque americano neutro, com enunciado claro, o que facilita o shadowing em inglês. Preste atenção à intonation nas perguntas (subida no fim) e nas pausas naturais entre as frases. Treine a imitar a forma como ele pronuncia palavras como "bestseller" (com ênfase no "best") e "pandemic" (destaque no "pan"). Use o método de shadowspeak: reproduza cada frase imediatamente após ouvi - la, tentando igualar o ritmo e a entonação. Isso ajuda a melhorar a fluência e a confiança na fala.
Gramática neste vídeo
As estruturas que o falante mais usa, com as palavras exatas do vídeo:
| Estrutura | No vídeo |
|---|---|
| Present perfect continuous have/has been + -ing — uma ação que começou antes e continua | we've been going · I've been doing · you've been working |
| Present perfect have/has + particípio passado — uma ação passada que ainda importa agora | He's been · have happened · have loomed |
| Voz passiva be + particípio passado — o foco está no que acontece, não em quem faz | was directed · being pulled · was passed |
| Orações relativas who / which + oração — informação extra sobre uma pessoa ou coisa | Hours, which is · People who read · again, which is |
O que é a Técnica de Shadowing?
Shadowing é uma técnica de aprendizado de idiomas com base científica, originalmente desenvolvida para o treinamento de intérpretes profissionais. O método é simples, mas poderoso: você ouve áudio em inglês nativo e repete imediatamente em voz alta — como uma sombra seguindo o falante com 1-2 segundos de atraso. Pesquisas mostram melhora significativa na precisão da pronúncia, entonação, ritmo, sons conectados, compreensão auditiva e fluência na fala.