Shadowing Practice: Psychological Mindset Shift from Reactive to Proactive Customer Success with Rachel Provan - Learn English Speaking with Video
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Hello, everyone.
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I'm your host, Anika Zuber, and welcome back to the next episode of the Customer Success Pro podcast.
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I'm a customer success executive leader, award -winning CS strategist, CS coach, and customer success fanatic.
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I help CS leaders and CSMs build and scale world -class CS processes and teams.
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I'm a strong believer that customer success is not a destination, but a journey.
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And it can be a tough journey, but don't worry, I'm here to help.
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This podcast was created to help make your CS journey a little bit easier to navigate.
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Join me every month on this podcast where we will dive into the hottest topics in CS,
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the newest strategies, and the best practices in customer success so you can make your CS journey a little bit easier.
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Make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts so
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that you can continue to learn on this CS journey that we are on together.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Today, I am speaking with Rachel Provan, who is a top 25 CS influencer and coach for customer success leaders.
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She has over 17 years of experience in customer success leadership building
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and scaling CS departments from startups to large corporations with a passion for fusing psychology with business strategy and leadership techniques,
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Rachel teaches new CS leaders to build and scale revenue -generating customer success departments.
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Her flagship course, the CS Leadership Academy, helps former CSMs nail their transition to accomplish CS leaders.
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With all of Rachel's experience in studying psychology and working with CS leaders, today we are going to talk about mindset shifts and how, as a customer success pro,
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you can shift your ways of working from reactive to proactive.
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Let's talk to Rachel all about shifting your mindset into proactive ways of working.
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Welcome, Rachel, to the podcast.
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You are my very first guest on my new podcast, and I'm so honored and excited to have you here with us today.
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But before we get into today's topic, I would love to let our listeners know who you are, what it is you're up to, what is proven success, and what's your role there?
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Tell us a bit more about you.
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Oh, my goodness.
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Well, first of all, thank you so much for letting me be your first guest.
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That really is such an honor.
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And I'm fully aware of that because I just started a podcast and I'm like trying to figure out my first guest.
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So totally get it.
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But yeah, I mean, I've been in customer success for 18 years now.
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I keep saying 17.
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I'm like, no, it's a new year.
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It's 18, Rach.
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um and yeah i've done everything from uh from seed stage to fortune 500 companies
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and everything in between um you know everything but two years of
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that was in leadership and you know just built cs departments
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and scaled them over and over um
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which does not mean i was good at it at the
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beginning by the way um i got better over time anyone is anyone good at cs
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when they start that's the thing uh so i'd been in it so long and after a while i started realizing
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you know one of my favorite things to do was lead my team
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and help them grow professionally
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and i just kept churning out what i called like mini
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directors i would create you know managers of customer success
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and directors and they would go on and they would even surpass me
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and go to like vp stuff i did a vp job once
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but i was like i i'm kind of good at like helping these people level up, helping them with their confidence, helping them learn what they need to know.
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And I mean, this took me forever to learn all this stuff.
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And they're like getting the short version.
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And I loved it.
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But at a certain point, I was just thinking to myself, you know, it was really a struggle, leadership for me.
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And there was a lot of self -doubt.
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And I made a lot of mistakes that I didn't necessarily have to make if someone would have just told me.
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Like, Like a lot of these things were pretty straightforward if I just had a reference point.
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So I created ProVan Success,
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which is customer success leadership coaching for customer success leaders in their first five years of leadership, mainly.
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I mean, I'll work with anyone, but that tends to be the majority of the people I work with.
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So I do a little bit of one -on -one, but these days I'm mostly doing a cohort -based coaching where they can learn online on videos
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and then get coached weekly by me with a community of fellow CS leaders that they also learn from.
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They learn as much from each other as they do from me.
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But I absolutely love it.
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You know, we teach them not just the strategy of how to build and scale, but also the mindset stuff you need, the team leadership stuff you need,
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how to work with other departments so that you can actually get something done.
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Which is so important and something that you don't learn in school.
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And it's not something that you can pick up just naturally.
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It is something that you have to be guided and something
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that someone else has gone through would then help you based on their experience.
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And again, experience can't be like taught in school.
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It's something that we have to learn on the job.
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And I'm guessing your courses get you there a lot faster through the experience that you've had.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And I mean, it's not just here's what I did.
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Go do it.
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Here's what I learned here's my wisdom.
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We, I have them do kind of breakout rooms and we do things like understanding the KPIs of other departments.
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You know, we're going to take a few minutes
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and we're going to write down what those are and see how CS aligns with those. And like, you're going to come up with something you're going to talk
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to about those other inter -department leaders about how CS can help their department without doing extra work.
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So they, they're given a chance to work on those things
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and think about those things before it smacks them in the face.
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Like, oh, I have all these great ideas, all these great plans, and no one's letting me do them.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you went from being an executive leader working in companies, startups, scale -ups, big organizations,
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like you just said, and then you decided to go totally off script and decide to start your own business, which is a huge accomplishment
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because I think a lot of people like the idea of I want to be my own boss.
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I want to start working for myself, but that's no easy feat and you've gone ahead and done it
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and you've been doing it for a few years now under Probe and Success.
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So huge congratulations on that.
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But you also have a team, a company.
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What are your ambitions with being a CEO of your own business now?
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Yeah.
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You know, it's so funny.
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It keeps evolving because I never, I say I never wanted to own a business and yet I've had several,
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Like from when I, like my first business was when I was 12 and it was like a legit catering business
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that I was doing like parties of 50.
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So I don't know where I come up with like, but I like stability, right?
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I like knowing where my next paycheck's gonna come from.
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Oh no, where did like entrepreneurship come from if you like stability?
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And I can tell you in that sense, entrepreneurship, if I'm very honest, came from how the tech economy has been the past couple of years, where I had to say to myself,
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well, this isn't a predictable paycheck either.
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You know, I was working in startups.
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They kept, you know, closing or I would, you know, move from one to the next because it was like a toxic environment or, and I was like, honestly,
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I'm moving around so much that this is not as steady a paycheck
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and it's not as predictable as I'm really giving it credit for.
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and I don't really have that much control over what I do,
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whether I can be successful because in certain situations, you're just not set up for success.
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A lot of them, there are things you can do and that's some of the things I teach, but there are, and people can tell you in my course, there are some places where I'm just like, that's a non -starter.
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And I got to the point where it was like, I was working so hard.
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And I think this has been a symptom of CS the last few years where it's do everything
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but accomplish nothing yeah oh man I'm already like I'm nodding along feeling all the pain points
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that you're just describing
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because as a CS leader it's just yeah we're really in the thick of things these years yeah
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so I was thinking to myself
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if I'm going to be killing myself with how much I'm
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working I want to at least have it make sense
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and know that like I think this is the right thing to be doing I think this is the right direction.
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And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong on my own terms.
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I'm not just telling people like, look, I'm showing you how this is not going to work.
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And then with them being like, no, do it anyway.
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And she's like, okay.
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Okay.
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Um, I, that just became too frustrating.
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But the thing is like, I didn't even really, I fell into it.
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Like I do so many things.
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Like I fell into CS um but I I was looking for a new position
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but I was like I'm gonna be
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so picky this time like I know the red flags I know what to watch for
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and it was you know 2021
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when people you know hiring boom you know early 2022 you know people were still like hiring like crazy um
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and I was like I can be picky like I've got
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tons of experience I've gotten online presence like Like people are offering me jobs.
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And I found myself just saying like, nope, no, you know, and I'm, you know, getting these offers.
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I was like, and it occurred to me, I was like, something is steering me in another direction.
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You know, like I keep doing this and I keep, I love being a CS leader, but I keep getting walloped and I keep getting opportunities to do it again.
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And I keep seeing these red flags and it's waving me in another direction.
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So I need to make some money right now.
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I'm going to offer to coach some people because You know,
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I'd done it for money once somebody messaged me on LinkedIn and was like, hey, do you do coaching?
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And I was like, yes.
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What's your rates?
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Hold on, let me Google that.
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That would be $2 .50 an hour back then.
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And so I did that once and it worked out really well.
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And I was like, all right, let's just see if people are into this.
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Because I was like, well, I've got no money coming in.
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So I need to do something at all times.
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I cannot sit around and do nothing.
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So I bought a course.
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I'm a course junkie, bought a course on how to like get your first clients.
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And, you know, that was my first real investment in my own, you know, development, career development.
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And it was like 3K.
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And I remember like truly almost throwing up as I was buying this with no income coming in.
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And like, I told my husband about it and I was like, he's going to kill me.
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This isn't going to work amazing.
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But you made a very solid investment by the sounds of it.
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3K and...
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I made it back in two months.
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Yeah.
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I made it back in two months.
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The course was three months.
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I made it back in two.
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And that was something where I discovered like, oh, that's what they mean by an investment.
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I do get this back and more.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Yeah.
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So that's when I started doing that kind of thing more often.
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And that's what made me comfortable asking for money because initially that gave me the icks and I was very uncomfortable.
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But when I realized like, look, look at what this did for me, look at if people give me money, I actually have the time to invest,
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to give them all my focus and give them what they need to then go out and make more, to succeed better, to not lose their goddamn minds.
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Which I think we're going to dive in deeper in the
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topic around basically how the human psychology really affects customer success
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and how we can go from reactive to proactive customer success with a mindset shift, which I know you discuss in your course as well.
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It's one of the pieces of content that you discuss and you share on LinkedIn.
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And then I know that you discuss on your own podcast as well.
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But super curious, you mentioned you fell into customer success.
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I want to dive in deeper there.
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What inspired you then to actually work in customer success if you fell into it?
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It's like, did any, well, I guess now these days people are like, oh, I want to be in customer success
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but like any of us who were you know kind of around yeah it wasn't the name wasn't around
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when i started in cs i mean i was an actor uh
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and i mainly did um like small independent films
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that went to like arty festivals a little bit of tv a little bit of plays um
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but i was tired of waitressing i was like i don't
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want to be smelly at the end of the day
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and tired and you know grumpy
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so i was like maybe i can do an office job i'll do some temp work
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and i got assigned to this place um
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that was at the time called vintage filings
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and i you know i was killing it a data entry uh
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so they hired me and they just kept promoting me basically
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and this place allowed me uh they're like look we we like your work
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so much we'll allow you to like fly off do a movie for a month
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and come back oh nice yeah like obviously they didn't pay me during that but it's like, yeah, your job will be here.
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And then I was like, yes, please.
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So, and I even got to keep my health insurance.
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So I was going to be loyal to that.
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And then by like 27, 28, when I was there a number of years, by like 27, 28, I was just like,
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I'd been acting for over a decade at that point.
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And I it's just very demoralizing the way people talk to you about your body.
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Like, I mean, at 100 pounds, I was asked to lose 10.
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Oh, my gosh.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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They're like, well, you're going to look fat next to her.
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It's like, uh -huh.
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God, I thought modeling was bad, but acting sounds just brutally bad, too.
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Bad.
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And you're just not treated like a human.
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And like at 27, 28, honestly, at least at that point as a woman, like if you haven't made it, you know?
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Yeah, you can still do stage, but you're not, you're not making any real money.
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Yeah.
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I was like, you know, I want a little bit more of a normal, predictable life.
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I'm happy at this company.
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I have friends.
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I'm doing well.
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Like, let's just sink in here, see what happens.
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Like maybe I'll go back to school and become a psychologist.
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Right.
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Cause I double majored in that.
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And I've been studying that longer than CS even just like my whole life.
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um but then i found out what you make as a psychologist i was like
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but i'm making more than that now and i'm like 27
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and they're like yeah so you know you could go to medical school you know
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and then you could be a psychiatrist to make real money
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and i was like i faint at the sight of blood
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i don't think that's going to work out for me um
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so i was just like i guess i'm figuring it out here.
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What a unique story.
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I know it's weird.
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I love that.
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Like you were an actress that was also a waitress that studied psychology.
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And now you've come like full circle of like, I worked in tech.
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Well, you still work in tech, I guess, technically.
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Technically.
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Technically, you still work in tech, but you have now leveraged a lot of your previous experience to now build these courses,
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coach people, and really speak about psychology in the day -to -day life of a CSM
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and how the effects of how our mind works really can shift the way you work day to day, which I know is something you cover in detail in your course as well with CSLA.
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But I think a lot of people who are listening to this podcast
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and who are working in customer success today are probably struggling with, I have a million things on my to -do list.
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My calendar just keeps running over.
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I have meeting after meeting, back -to -back calls.
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I just cannot seem to go from reactive
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and like just dealing with inbox fire and dumpster fires
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when it comes to clients to being truly proactive and being
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that consultative customer success manager that I think everyone is ideally that's like the ideal role
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that everybody wants to be in
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but we know we deal with dumpster fires every single day
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so in your opinion like with CS being so much in mindset
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and a lot of teams work in like support driven or reactive modes, what kind of mindset shift should a CSM
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or CS professional really focus on to move from that reactive state into that proactive approach that we hope to be in?
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Great question.
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And, you know, some of that is to do with, you know, kind of what stage of maturity you're at in customer success.
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Like you're never going move to fully proactive until you're using data
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and tools and you have your personas
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and your use cases like those are kind of the personas
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and use cases are table stakes and then you move on to like data
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and tools and that's where you start to get ahead of it
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because you're able to see trends
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when everything is siloed all over the place you can't possibly
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and it is going to keep you reactive
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because it takes you forever to do anything to see one thing about a client
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but in terms of I always like to look at it
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as what can I do in my situation right now what do I have control over um
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and you know I mainly work with leaders
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but it I work with I have worked with CSMs as well
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and I always like to say you can lead from wherever
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you are it doesn't matter what your title is you can
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choose like all right this is what needs to happen I'm going to take control of this and do the right thing.
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And it doesn't mean you disregard everybody else.
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It means you learn to work with them.
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You do what's right for the collective is really, you know, if you find something that works really great, you don't just keep it to yourself.
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You share it to the team.
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You help move everybody forward is really what leadership is about to me.
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And how about for CS leaders then?
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Because you're working with CS leaders every day.
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What kind of mindset shift should they be focusing on to help their teams?
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The CSMs have to be reactive to some degree because you're in the weeds, right?
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I do think there's a sense of urgency that isn't necessarily accurate, you know, that isn't necessarily properly calibrated.
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You know, people get so anxious and it's like, this customer's upset.
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Like, I'm sorry I interrupted you, but this customer's upset.
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It's like, that's not an emergency.
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Like no one is bleeding out on a table we are in customer success no
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but really no one's dying here exactly like there are situations where it's like okay no
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and there are even situations in tech where it's like okay
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our product is down everyone's freaking out it's like yes please interrupt me for
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that but someone's upset they'll still be upset in a half an hour an hour
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when i finish what i need to do exactly but
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that again that's something that is a top -down thing that you that you set that tone for your team, you know, if your leader is like, oh, my God, what are you doing about it?
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Then, of course, you're going to be like that.
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And it's not productive for anyone.
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But what I suggest, you know, my juicy tip that I give to everyone, whether it's a CS leader or a CSM and whoever you are,
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you need to kind of clear this with whoever you're reporting to.
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I feel like it's you have to you have to sort of ask permission less as a leader
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and have it be more like, so here's how I work.
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Um, but I'm a big believer in setting aside one hour every day, put it on your calendar,
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mark it as a meeting and attend it as you would a meeting every single day.
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Do not schedule over it unless you would cancel a meeting with someone for whatever's being asked of you.
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Turn off your Slack, turn off your email.
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It's one hour.
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No one's going to die.
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Um, and again, let your boss know you're doing this.
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Have a way for them to reach you in an actual emergency.
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I like to say, put your phone on the other side of the room where you can't reach it with your hand because we're addicted.
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We'll just.
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You know?
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Yeah.
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My phone is literally in front of me right now.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Like it's, I can't unless it's physically removed from me.
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So, uh, I'd be like, look, call me if there's an emergency, I will walk across the room and pick it up, but otherwise I'm heads down in that time.
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You should be working on strategy by strategy.
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I mean, what are the big picture things?
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What are the projects I need to work on to move the needle forward
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and I'm a big fan of having just one per quarter
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that this is the project I have here at stages every day I clock in at
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that time and I just heads down work on that one project
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and that's how you move the needle forward every day make measurable progress every day
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because if you just use
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that time to quote unquote catch up you're not ever working on your own KPIs I totally agree Rachel, by the way, I'm like nodding visually because I think that,
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yes, I'm a big believer in time blocking, but also you can't just say focus time or busy
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or anything like that because you're not going to be held accountable to that.
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And by you, I mean, I personally will not just focus time will be me on my catching up on Slack messages
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or maybe looking at my phone for whatever else I need to look at.
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But if you actually put an hour in your calendar every single day, like you've just said, and every hour is accounted for saying building,
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I don't know, a playbook for renewals or saying reviewing health score metrics
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or whatever it is that you're trying to do to be more proactive.
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If you actually make it and treat it like a meeting, you'd be surprised at how much more you can shift towards that proactive nature.
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So I do love you sharing that that juicy tip.
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And I completely agree.
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You have to be accountable.
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You have to hold yourself accountable because otherwise the day will just take you like the sea, you know?
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Definitely.
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If you don't do that for yourself, you're just, you're in it and you're going.
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And the reason that I say, you know, I say one to two, I try to get people to do two, but it's everything's baby steps.
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Because you're still going to have to deal with all that stuff, right?
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There's still going to be all the reactive things that you need to deal with.
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This is a realistic way.
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It's like, I'm not going from, you know, eating burgers and fries every day to like gluten -free vegan overnight.
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Cause that's just not realistic, but you know, maybe I can have an apple with my Big Mac, you know?
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So to me, uh, and no, I don't, whatever.
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Um, to me saying like one hour towards the beginning of the day, you know, my personal thing is check your email for half an hour.
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Cause you're going to anyway, I'm never going to tell you, no, don't look at your email first thing in the morning sure
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that would be great not gonna happen
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but like do what you can do in a half an
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hour shut it know you're coming back to it in an hour
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and then before the day steals you you know 9 30
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to 10 30 get in there get it done um
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but also you know you always want to know what is the very next step
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so leave a breadcrumb for yourself like i'm picking up here
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and tomorrow i'm going to do this
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because all the tasks switching it actually you know here's the psychology stuff
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but it it makes your IQ points drop by about 20
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percent towards the end of the day by just going back and forth.
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I'm just I'm just thinking it makes me exhausted
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because whatever I switch I'm like it's super tiring when you have to contact switch so much in one day.
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So I mean if you can batch all your like I'm going to be working with people
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and I'm going to be talking to you on meetings
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and then you're I'm going to be working on like analytical stuff
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if you can sort of batch those in different spaces in the day or on different days, that's ideal because you're going to end up less tired.
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I love that.
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Those are such great tips.
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And I think as a leader, you have to start to set the example in order to get your team to follow suit, like you just said.
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But is there a strategy or a mindset a team leader should be following in order to be proactive or more proactive, I should say, rather than reactive?
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Because I think, again, leaders are probably the worst at this and then their teams see it
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and then their teams mimic what they see as well.
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Because they're never taught.
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You know, when you move from a CSM to any sort of leadership position,
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again, one of the reasons I did this is there's almost never any training and it's a completely different position and mindset.
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You go from being in the weeds to having to have a strategic overview and it won't work.
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And that's why I hate player coach because you can't do both.
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You just won't.
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It won't happen.
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You're basically paying someone more to continue to be a CSM and just be more stressed about it.
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One of the things that I say
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that you have to learn to do is just relentlessly prioritize and be okay with saying no.
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You have to learn how to do that in a way that doesn't piss people off.
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You are now responsible for this department's metrics.
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and the people involved.
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So another thing I have people do is we, because a lot of this is very tactical and practical because the brain is going to say, you're going to say here, that's a great idea.
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I'm going to do that.
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I'm going to block an hour on my calendar.
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We come back the next week.
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I say, great.
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How many people blocked an hour on their calendar?
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Lots of hands go up.
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How many took it?
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Maybe two.
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Like, okay.
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So this is why we have the coaching.
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What happened?
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What did your brain tell you was more important.
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Yeah, definitely.
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But I think you just highlighted something so important is
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that we tend not to say no.
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And I think the way our minds are built as customer success professionals is I'm here to help.
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I'm here to do it.
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I can do it all.
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Please let me help.
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Yes, I can help.
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Or yes, I'm happy to.
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Yes, we are.
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We are people pleasers naturally.
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And I think it's just the way we are.
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But I know a lot of CS pros
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that are always trying to do it all
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and they're trying to help make their customers successful
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while also trying to collect feedback for product
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while also trying to be like the best top performer and also have a seat at the executive table.
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And then eventually you burn out because that's just way too much on one person's plate.
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How do you either coach or what's the psychological shift around finding balance around that?
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That's about setting expectations.
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And this is something where I find it helps
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if you are creating like a visual cue of everything that's on your plate.
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You know, we have, I have a system that I give people, but basically it just is a way to track all the things that you have to do, all like the random crap,
416
because there is a lot of that and it'll take up your whole day, plus a separate place for the projects.
417
And just kind of map in your day, like realistically, historically, what have I been able to do in a day?
418
What have I accomplished?
419
You can track it for a few days, but you'll start to see, I like to have a to -do and a today
420
and you pull things from to -do into today
421
but you'll start to see that to -do just keeps growing longer
422
and longer and longer and you'll start to get stressed out about it
423
but the thing is what it's time to do when
424
that happens is say reality intrudes there is more on my
425
plate than I can get done in the amount of time allotted right
426
and it can feel like a scary conversation to say to
427
your boss to another department like I can't do this like I have to say no.
428
There are ways to say no without pissing people off.
429
You can't be like, I can't, I'm sorry, or being really apologetic.
430
It's just, if you treat it like math, if you're like, look, this is how many things I have to do.
431
This is how many hours I have in the day.
432
And I'm trying to put 10 pounds of potatoes into a five pound bag.
433
That's how I like to put it.
434
It's just not going to fit.
435
So you have to decide what are the things that are going to truly move the needle on whatever your KPIs are.
436
If it's NRR, if it's, you know, QBRs, if, you know, some people track how many QBRs, if it's engagement, if it, whatever you are tracking, what,
437
you know, I prefer outcomes, but those are trickier to track.
438
But what are the most bang for the buck activities?
439
And what are the things that are on your plate that are actually going to make a difference?
440
There's something called the Pareto Principle, and it's in science, it's in math.
441
It shows that 80 % of your results will come from 20 % of your actions
442
and taking the time to really dig into what are those 20%,
443
you know, and instead of trying to fix the 80 % that's not actually helping, double down on the stuff that is.
444
And that's really how you how you work in the whole, you know, do more with less thing.
445
Do more with less is not possible if you just mean do all the stuff everyone was doing, but with fewer people.
446
That's not possible.
447
No, you have to change your strategy and actually make progress.
448
And that's what you have to do as a leader.
449
It's prioritization all the time and saying, I would love to do this.
450
I understand how important it is.
451
But, you know, we agreed that this was going to be, you know, NRR was going to be our key priority.
452
And that's a lagging indicator.
453
But I can tell you
454
that these are the things I need to do to get customers staying and to get customers buying more.
455
It's just, it's so important to remember that you are putting out output
456
that is actually driving value and the prioritization piece is so critical.
457
I mean, as someone who works with CSMs as well, CSMs prioritize every day.
458
If you think about it, you're prioritizing which customers have to call, which ones are priority, are they higher paying, are they lower health score, whatever it is.
459
It's the same thing as a leader as well.
460
It's the same skill set, I should say.
461
It's like, you really do have to prioritize
462
if you have 50 things on your to -do list how
463
are you realistically going to get to those 50 things it's
464
not by doing more you're not you really have to prioritize
465
and you have to think about of these 50 things on my to -do list
466
which one is going to drive the biggest impact for the business, for the team, for my customers.
467
And like you said, it's only about 20 % of those tasks that are actually going to drive impact.
468
And you have to pick that out and decide as a leader what that means for you and your team.
469
But I love that.
470
So many good little tips here.
471
I'm really loving this conversation, but I want to talk about something that I think as people pleasers and as top performers,
472
CSMs also struggle with, or any CS professional, I should say, which is imposter syndrome.
473
I know you talk about this on your podcast as well.
474
I know it's something that honestly I felt for 15 years now and I know that I struggle with it.
475
I know a lot of customer success professionals struggle with it.
476
How do you address this with your coaches or with anyone you've worked with?
477
How do you really shift that mindset when it comes to imposter syndrome?
478
This is one of my favorite things to talk about
479
because it's something that you can actually shift in a reasonably short amount of time.
480
Tell us more.
481
Tell us the quick trip.
482
I mean, but let's be honest, you're not going to build and scale your entire CS department in three months, right?
483
So people come out of my program and they're like, I have all the tools that I, you know, to do what I need to do.
484
I know what I need to do now.
485
It's not done, but, you know, I feel comfortable in that.
486
The major difference they come out with is confidence
487
because they're like I'm a different person like I'm not worried the way I was
488
that like oh my god oh my god everyone's gonna realize
489
I'm a fraud oh my god uh I'm gonna get fired I'm gonna end up living under a bridge
490
and oh my god you know
491
and that's what I used to do um it's a combination of factors uh to me it's understanding
492
that the people that you're talking to most of the time you know
493
if you're talking to other departments if you're talking to senior leadership
494
they know less than you do about customer success so true
495
so true you are the expert here yeah you are the expert here
496
and you have to be and you have to be
497
if you let doubt get in there
498
and you're like well i don't know you know we we are animals we want
499
when we look for a leader it's
500
because they seem like okay they know where they're going i'm gonna follow them because that's going to keep me safe.
501
If a leader is like, well, I don't know, like you're not going to follow them because you're like, that doesn't seem safe to me.
502
Right.
503
So you have to also understand it's just the expectations I think are a little too high.
504
People have of what leadership really is.
505
We're still just a bunch of grownups in a room, having conversations, doing our best guess of what's going to work here.
506
All right.
507
That is all it is.
508
You know, if it's a strategic initiative, it's you know all right
509
so we're this is what's been happening with onboarding we're going
510
to try doing you know a group onboarding to use less of our time we're going to see
511
if that has any impact on adoption and the quality goes down
512
but if it doesn't that's a real big win for us
513
so that's what we're going to do it could increase our
514
capacity by you know take 20 percent more clients each okay
515
so you've called a number
516
which is what a lot of us are afraid to do guess what
517
if it ends up being 15 percent no one's gonna throw tomatoes at you
518
or shoot you uh it's you say these things in a room full of other executives
519
and they just say okay sounds good moving on to the
520
next we all just kind of sense check each other so
521
that if there's a glaring thing that's missing
522
because we all have blind spots
523
if there's something glaring we can be like hey have you thought about this one angle
524
but otherwise it's just like hey folks here's what i'm gonna try i'm doing these little experiments off we go
525
and if it bombs miserably you come back and you say hey
526
so here's what we planned we all agreed
527
that made sense here's what happened we did not have access to this data
528
that you know this is new data we're going to pivot
529
and here's how we're going to react based on the result
530
we got it's that's science you know um it's different
531
if it's if you're in a company where there are people who are abusive
532
and that's not a healthy place to be right that's not about imposter syndrome that's about someone being horrible um
533
but it's a combination of you know understanding
534
that you don't have to know everything
535
and what you know is enough just keep learning
536
and you know yeah you're still gonna fall on your butt a couple times
537
and it's not gonna be the end of the world definitely
538
and i think if you're facing imposter syndrome it means you're actually a super top performer right
539
so you shouldn't be worried overconfident people do not have imposter
540
syndrome like i've had bosses tell me like i need you to mess up more often
541
i need you to take some risks it's okay
542
if you fail like just don't try and make it perfect
543
because it's the perfectionist you know aspect that comes into it
544
and it's like if i don't make it perfect you know
545
if i make it perfect then nobody can have anything to
546
say about it no one can be mad at me
547
and no one can be mean to me right um
548
but the other piece of it which I hadn't really thought about until I ended up having people in a cohort environment,
549
is seeing that other people felt exactly the same way and seeing how knowledgeable they were
550
and realizing they knew just about the same amount of stuff and that everybody was kind of in the same boat, that it's just like, okay, so this isn't a me issue.
551
This is just kind of normal and everyone feels this way.
552
Yeah, it really is.
553
And I think that everyone should start to embrace that like truly
554
if you are a top performer and you're worried about like how you're being perceived
555
or what's happening in your career if you're doing enough
556
or do you really belong in this role or this this title
557
if you're thinking those things then honestly like you're doing fine
558
because imposter syndrome doesn't happen to people who are like low performers
559
or people who are like too confident it happens to the people
560
that are just doing the best they can and they're questioning themselves.
561
And honestly, most of us are facing it.
562
And I'd say, especially in CS right now, because of all we've been facing and, you know, being asked to do more than is possible.
563
And now it's like, hey, you can save the economy, right?
564
Right.
565
Yeah.
566
You can save our whole business today, right?
567
You're going to be the entire growth engine.
568
You know, we haven't let you do anything before, but now you've got it, right?
569
We've given you no tools, two people, a spreadsheet, and you can turn it around.
570
Yeah, that's what you've been here for the whole time.
571
So with those kinds of expectations, of course, that's going to play into, oh my God, why can't I do this thing that they're asking me to do?
572
Yeah.
573
And when so many startups hire people who are first -time leaders, you have the blind leading the blind.
574
And it happens enough because that's what they can afford, you know?
575
But it sets everybody up for a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, because it's going to take, it's a longer term growth strategy.
576
but if you are the other thing is cs people as you've said people pleasers high performers
577
most of us have been like
578
that gold star a student you know i'm i do everything right
579
and i work my butt off to get it
580
but i do it for the first time in our lives
581
a lot of us are experiencing i couldn't get the outcome
582
that i wanted and that is devastating and we're not getting the praise
583
that we're used to
584
and we're not getting the oh my god you were such a help uh
585
and and there are people looking at us with disappointment and
586
that is devastating and it really affects a lot of us in terms of our mental health uh
587
and the reality is so many of those people are being set up to fail
588
so it's not just getting the confidence to get over imposter
589
syndrome it's getting the confidence to be able to step back pause look at it logically
590
and say all right what am i being asked to do?
591
How would that get done?
592
And is that truly possible?
593
And then having those conversations, even if it's not a conversation that people are going to like, being able to say, I want to do this for you.
594
But you know, you're asking me to build a house in two weeks.
595
Yeah, which is impossible.
596
And that is not a task that you should be feeling bad about or have any sort of imposter syndrome around, to be honest.
597
Yeah, more mature companies hopefully don't do that as much.
598
But it's happening a lot in startups right now.
599
So I do like to call it out.
600
It is it is.
601
And you've just talked about a lot of things about mindset shift, about imposter syndrome, about how you can get certain outputs from your team based on your leadership style
602
and the way that you lead your teams.
603
Looking back at your career and everything that you've accomplished, what's one thing that you wish you could have done differently or better based on mindset?
604
Wow, there are so many things.
605
I mean, the first and most obvious is like, I wish I could have been a little nicer to myself and not,
606
you know, had such an almost identity crisis when I couldn't do something perfectly.
607
You shifted careers like massively.
608
Oh, yeah.
609
I mean, honestly, that was so much easier than CS ever was.
610
There's so many fewer people to have to try and make happy.
611
I enjoy learning.
612
But in terms of like what I would have done differently, there are certain jobs where I would have said no to certain things.
613
that I said yes to that and I shot myself in the foot and it really wasn't anyone's fault, but I would have just been like,
614
oh, you know what, that's not possible right now.
615
This is what we need to focus on.
616
And like what you're asking me to do here isn't reasonable rather than just being like, yeah, I can do it and like falling on my face.
617
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
618
Learning to say no and learning to set your boundaries.
619
I think that's a huge mindset tip that anyone can take away in CS, whether you're a first -time CSM or a seasoned leader.
620
I know I struggle with it still.
621
It's something that you have to always find balance with.
622
So thanks for sharing that.
623
Listen, Rachel, we can sit here and talk for hours.
624
And I honestly, we could probably record like 10 podcasts on this topic, but I always like to wrap up my podcast episodes with
625
a quick fire round where I challenge my guests to try to answer the next few questions in one sentence or less, which might be tough based on what we've talked about.
626
Based on me.
627
Yeah.
628
But I'm going to challenge you to try to answer these in one sentence or less.
629
Are you ready?
630
Ready.
631
Okay.
632
The first is if you could predict the future, what do you think CS will focus on next year?
633
Hmm.
634
outcomes i'm seeing it all over the first dominoes are starting to tip i think it's going to be outcomes
635
and i'm happy about that because that is that that's a sentence
636
good good first uh attempt next question is which app
637
or software do you use every day every week on your phone
638
or your laptop and why aside from games um i play so many phone games it's so embarrassing,
639
but I actually use Trello all the time because that's where I keep my organizational system, everything I have to do, everything I have to tell everyone.
640
I cannot keep a thought in my brain.
641
It's all in there.
642
Amazing.
643
I love a good to -do list as well.
644
And the next question is, if you could change one thing about customer success, what would it be?
645
Make people have realistic expectations.
646
I like that.
647
So hard to do one sentence on that, but that's where I'm going to leave it.
648
Yeah.
649
Okay.
650
Amazing.
651
And my last question for you is, who should be my next podcast guest?
652
I give you like 10.
653
That's okay.
654
You can give me 10.
655
Yeah.
656
I would say Cynthia DaSilva, Shari, if she's allowed, Shari Srebnek, you know, depending if Forrester lets her.
657
Jan Young always has amazing things to say about revenue and CS really cool, different perspective.
658
Yep.
659
Those are all really good people to talk to, I would say.
660
Amazing.
661
Thank you so much for your time, Rachel.
662
I really appreciated this conversation.
663
It was super enlightening.
664
I always love chatting with you.
665
If our guests have any future questions or want to hear more about CSLA or everything that you're up to, what's the best way to get ahold of you.
666
You can find me on provansuccess .com.
667
Provan, not proven, but it's a pun.
668
Provansuccess .com.
669
And I also am on LinkedIn all the time.
670
You can find me there.
671
I am not scary at all.
672
You can always just message me and I'll be nice to you, I promise.
673
Amazing.
674
And I'll make sure to link everything in our show notes.
675
Thank you so much, Rachel.
676
Really appreciate it.
677
And thanks for being on the show.
678
Thank you for having me.
679
This was a blast.
680
thank you for listening to the customer success pro podcast today
681
i hope you learned something new to take back to your team
682
and your company
683
if you enjoyed today's episode please can you take one minute
684
to give me a positive review on apple podcast it takes a lot of time
685
and energy to create an episode
686
and i want to continue to create more for you
687
but it would be great to know
688
that you are enjoying these episodes also do not forget to subscribe to this podcast on apple podcast
689
or spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast as i release a new podcast every month
690
And if you have any topics that you would like me to discuss in the future, or you would like to be a guest on this podcast, please feel free to reach out.
691
All my contact details are in the show notes.
692
And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it because sharing is caring.
693
Thanks again for listening and tune in next time for more on customer success.
694
Cheers to your CS journey and catch you next time.
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Vocabulary and speaking notes for this lesson
This B2 speaking lesson is built on the video “Psychological Mindset Shift from Reactive to Proactive Customer Success with Rachel Provan”. This video has 694 sentences and 8361 words to shadow. The speech runs for 43:13. The speaker talks fast, about 193 words per minute, so expect linked and reduced sounds. 85% of the words are among the 3,000 most common in English; the rest is worth studying before you start.
Key vocabulary in this video
The 15 most advanced words in the video, with pronunciation and meaning:
| Word | Pronunciation | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| podcast noun | /ˈpɑdˌkæst/ | A program, especially an audio program, produced on a regular basis, delivered over the Internet in a compressed digital format and designed for playback on… |
| mindset noun | /ˈmaɪn(d)ˌsɛt/ | A way of thinking; an attitude or opinion, especially a habitual one. |
| proactive adjective | /pɹoʊˈæk.tɪv/ | Acting in advance to deal with an expected change or difficulty. |
| impostor noun | /ɪmˈpɑstɚ/ | Someone who attempts to deceive by using an assumed name or identity. |
| reactive adjective | /ɹiːˈæktɪv/ | That reacts or responds to a stimulus. |
| performer noun | /pɚˈfɔɹmɚ/ | One who performs for, or entertains, an audience. |
| startup noun | /ˈstɑɹtˌʌp/ | The act or process of starting a process or machine. |
| prioritize verb | /pɹaɪˈɒɹ.ə.taɪz/ | To value, do, or choose something first, or before other things. |
| expectation noun | /ˌɛk.spɛkˈteɪ.ʃən/ | The act or state of expecting or looking forward to an event as about to happen. |
| accomplish verb | /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ/ | To finish successfully. |
| pleaser noun | Someone or something which pleases. | |
| believer noun | /bɪˈlivɚ/ | A person who believes; especially regarding religion. |
| predictable adjective | /pɹəˈdɪktəbləl/ | Able to be predicted. |
| accountable adjective | /əˈkaʊntəbl̩/ | Obliged, when called upon, to answer (for one’s deeds); answerable. |
| needle noun | /ˈniː.dəl/ | A long, thin, sharp implement usually for piercing as in sewing, embroidery, acupuncture, tattooing, body piercing, medical injections, sutures, etc; or a… |
Phrasal verbs you will hear
| Word | Meaning |
|---|---|
| end up verb | To bring to a conclusion. |
| come back verb | To return to a place. |
| come up with verb | To manage to produce, deliver, or present (something) by inventing, creating, thinking of, or obtaining it. |
| pick up verb | To lift; to grasp and raise. |
| turn off verb | To power down, to switch off, to put out of operation, to deactivate (an appliance, light, mechanism, functionality etc.). |
| burn out verb | To destroy by fire. |
| catch up verb | To pick up suddenly. |
| come out with verb | To say (something) unexpectedly. |
Sentences worth repeating
Short, complete lines from the video that you can reuse in everyday conversation:
- I'm like, no, it's a new year.
- Here's what I learned here's my wisdom.
- You know, it's so funny.
- I'm happy at this company.
- I mean, what are the big picture things?
Grammar in this video
The structures the speaker uses most, with the exact words from the video:
| Structure | In the video |
|---|---|
| Present perfect continuous have/has been + -ing — an action that started earlier and is still going on | you've been doing · I've been studying · what's been happening |
| Conditional sentences if + clause, will/would + verb — a condition and its result | if there's an emergency, I will walk |
| Present perfect have/has + past participle — a past action that still matters now | I've been · i've done · has gone |
| Passive voice be + past participle — the focus is on what happens, not who does it | was created · is proven · be guided |
Pronunciation to watch
The speaker uses 259 contractions and reduced forms, such as I'm, you're, don't. Say them the short way, as you hear them.
- The “sh” and “zh” sounds: expectation /ˌɛk.spɛkˈteɪ.ʃən/, accomplish /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ/, prioritization /prʌɪˌɒrətʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/, entrepreneurship /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ.ʃɪp/, anxious /ˈæŋkʃəs/
- Long words — get the stress right: prioritize /pɹaɪˈɒɹ.ə.taɪz/, expectation /ˌɛk.spɛkˈteɪ.ʃən/, predictable /pɹəˈdɪktəbləl/, technically /ˈtɛk.nɪˌkəl.i/, prioritization /prʌɪˌɒrətʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/
How to practise with this video
- Listen to the whole video once without speaking and note the words you do not know.
- Start at 0.75× speed, shadow it sentence by sentence, then go back to normal speed once it feels easy.
- Record yourself and compare with the original, paying attention to words like podcast, mindset, proactive.
What is the Shadowing Technique?
Shadowing is a science-backed language learning technique originally developed for professional interpreter training and popularized by polyglot Dr. Alexander Arguelles. The method is simple but powerful: you listen to native English audio and immediately repeat it out loud — like a shadow following the speaker with just a 1–2 second delay. Unlike passive listening or grammar drills, shadowing forces your brain and mouth muscles to simultaneously process and reproduce real speech patterns. Research shows it significantly improves pronunciation accuracy, intonation, rhythm, connected speech, listening comprehension, and speaking fluency — making it one of the most effective methods for IELTS Speaking preparation and real-world English communication.