Prática de Shadowing: 'He's a TERRORIST!' Mohammed Hijab vs Jonathan Conricus | Migrant Protests, Iran War, Israel & Islam - Aprenda a falar inglês com vídeo
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I want to try and keep this as civilized as we can to allow both sides to speak.
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What they are trying to do is to take control over societies and then implement Sharia law,
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which means to erase Western laws, norms and culture and subjugate them to a medieval mindset that is Islam.
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You lost the war.
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
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You're an embarrassment.
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You're telling these people to die for you.
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Fight yourself.
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Why are you a coward?
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You speak nonsense and you're way out of your depth, but I allowed you to speak.
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And you try your personal insults, which are, you know, actually quite ridiculous.
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Be a man and speak the truth.
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Don't be a weasel.
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Don't be a coward.
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Don't be a coward.
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Don't backtrack now.
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Why are you backtracking like a puss solanimous?
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Why are you backtracking like a puss solanimous?
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The protests in the south of England this weekend with the
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latest flashpoint in a culture war has been simmering to the boil for years.
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Hundreds of people gathered, apparently spontaneously, to confront the police after a small boat carrying 140 migrants was brought to shore.
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A day earlier, black-tied vigilantes brought the port of Dover to a standstill.
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The small boats may have been the catalyst, but the issues are far broader.
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Chants of Christ is King were heard alongside the familiar cries to stop the boats.
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And while the number of small boat crossings is significantly down this year, the same cannot be said of the tensions underpinning the crisis.
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They are the same ones currently playing out in the US
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as Trump's Republicans seek to portray Democrats as in hock with radical Muslims.
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And they're at the root of many of the arguments about Israel and Palestine.
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Mike Huckabee, the US ambassador to Israel, posted on Sunday, the Brits have lost it.
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The Jew hate of their government.
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There's no boundaries and there's no facts.
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He was responding to a compilation of stories about Gaza posted by the British Foreign Secretary, Ed Miliband, who is in fact Jewish.
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Broadly speaking, one side wants to frame all of the arguments as a
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fight for the survival of Western culture against the spread of Islam.
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Israel, they say, is a bastion of Western values in the Middle East.
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The other says the real cause of this fight is old-fashioned bigotry, and the recent behaviour shows the Israeli state's values are not ours at all.
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Well, joining me to debate this is Islamic activist, thinker and public debater, Mohamed Hijab, and senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defence of Democracies, Jonathan Comrickes.
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Well, welcome to both of you.
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I've had you both on the show many times.
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I'm glad you've agreed to debate this.
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You both have strong views.
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I think we know before we start what side you come from, so we accept that.
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I want to try
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and keep this as civilised as we can to allow both sides to speak
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and make their point and for the other to respond.
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Honestly, when people start shouting at each other, the loser is the viewer.
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And I would remind you we also air in podcast form where if you're listening to it, You can't make Hedner tell her what anyone say.
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So let's just try and keep to that principle.
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I'm going to organise this debate really along two propositions.
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And in both cases, I'll invite one of you to open up with your argument and let the other one respond.
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So the first proposition is that Islamic infiltration into Western society,
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politics and culture is an existential threat to our way of life and must be reversed before it's too late.
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So, Jonathan, you start.
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Why do you believe that?
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Yeah, shalom from Israel.
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Thanks for having me on.
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I really welcome the new practices and I commit to behaving accordingly.
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Excellent.
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Yeah, I'll really try my best to stay in my lane.
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And unless there's any personal transgressions, transgressions, I will keep silent as my co-panelist is speaking.
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What I will say is not directed against Muslim private citizens.
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It's more related to the political structure and the core tenets of Islam and the mindset,
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the very aggressive and imperialistic mindset, which we in Middle East are at the receiving end of when it comes to Islam.
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I think that, shortly put, this is today the biggest threat to Western civilization.
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I think it is much more dangerous than Nazism and communism were at the time, for the main reason that the threat is more dynamic,
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it is clever and deceptive, and it's not so clear to distinguish.
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And you really have to pay attention
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if you want to understand what the threat is in the seventh century
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when islam conquered about half of the known word world or
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or third of a known world by force by the power of the sword it was jihad
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and conquest with the power of the sword in the 21st century what's happening in europe is
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that it is a slow relatively peaceful relatively legal conquest by immigration
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and then by birth rate um
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and it's a conquest from within now your introduction speaks about israel
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and makes the connection i don't really see the connection here
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one issue i mean there's a lot going on in israel
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and a lot going on in the middle east
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and we definitely have our plate full but i don't think that the two issues are really connected.
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There are, however, people that have a very strong
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and burning hatred against Israel who find themselves in the camp of the Muslim Brotherhood and the pro-Islamists,
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but that doesn't really make the topic related to Israel.
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Now, one thing that I think we should acknowledge first, which a lot of Europeans are sensitive about saying and acknowledging
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and that's the fact that the immigrants come from failing
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or failed states if their form of government if their societies
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and culture was compatible or equivalent or as good as
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or as functioning as western society they would not be immigrating
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and i think that basic notion of understanding why people migrate
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and why out of their own volition they try to get to the west
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because their systems work and their law and order exists
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and there there's welfare and many other things
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and there there's tolerance i think should cause a lot of decision makers to pause
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and assess well if they're coming from there what type of failed mindset are they bringing with them
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and what are they going to try to do in our countries i think
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that there is a heavy heavy trouble
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and troublesome ignorance in many of the higher layers of society
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in the west in europe in uk in some parts of the us
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and many other places where people are ignorant of the basic tenets of islam of islamic culture religion tradition customs
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and norms they are ignorant about what sharia means they are ignorant about the obligation of jihad
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and they don't understand what is happening to them and they don't understand what is at risk.
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The short-term problems are easily identifiable.
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It's crime, it's violence, it's over-dependence on welfare,
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it's welfare states, many examples of good integration that gives us hope that with good government policies people,
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migrants, Muslims and non-Muslims, can move out of those circles
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and we have a lot of good examples around the world of countries to do
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that but we also have many bad examples of countries
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that do not understand the short-term problems
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and they also invite invite the long-term problem now we're talking about a threat
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that is a creeping almost legal
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and a gradual approach this isn't jihad by the sword like the things
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that we face in the middle east by the likes of hamas and hezbollah and some further away like ISIS.
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That's clear, that's identifiable, that's jihad by the source.
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But it is very similar.
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And what the Muslim Brotherhood and many other politically organised Islamists want to do...
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Yeah, I'll wrap it just very quickly.
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I do need to let a response come.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure that there will be one and I'll be listening.
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And what they are trying to do is to take control over institutions, take control over societies, and then,
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and this is the kicker, which many people are ignorant of, then to implement Sharia law, which means to erase Western laws,
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norms, and culture and subjugate them to a medieval mindset that is Islam.
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And if we have time, I would want to give suggestions of what should happen.
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And I think, you know, there are countries that have taken a much more...
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Well, I'll tell you what, let's come to what you think the solution is in a minute.
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But let Mohammed Hijab respond to what you've just laid out as being the problem as he sees it.
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And Mohammed, what I would say to you is the second proposition is specifically about Israel's influence on Western politics
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and so on.
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So try to keep the Israeli element of this sort of out of this.
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This is more your response to what Jonathan Conricus has said specific about Islamic infiltration into Western society.
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Sure.
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I mean, I think the first thing we have to just acknowledge is that he's spoken for about maybe 10 minutes.
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Four and a half.
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All right, four and a half minutes without any interruption.
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So I hope that that will be afforded to me, the same language will be afforded to me.
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The first thing he talks about, jihad and all these kinds of concepts.
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I came across a video of his, a very interesting one, with Brendan Weichart, whereby he was speaking on Mario Norfolk's show.
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And on the 28th minute and the 34th second,
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he was asked directly whether or not he intends or that he wants civilian targets to be killed directly.
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And he said, that's what needs to be done.
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This is exactly his quote.
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That's what needs to be done.
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The question that was posed to him was, the question that was posed to him was, do you think civilian targets should be, civilians should be targeted?
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He answered, that's what needs to be done.
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This is online.
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I've given you the exact time.
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Then he goes on to say, war is about breaking the political will of the opponent.
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This is an exact quotation from what he said.
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So for him then to pontificate in a sesquipedalian way about, for four and a half minutes,
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Islamic jihad and infiltration, after essentially saying what amounts to a terroristic phrase, that if he was in the UK,
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would actually render him applicable to be arrested in the UK, because he is talking about civilians under the Terrorism Act of 2000,
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under Section 58 or many other sections you can make an argument, is actually a laughable proposition in the first place.
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But let's deal with it because here's the thing.
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He's talking about Islam and he's making a causative argument between the Muslims in the UK
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and Islam as a way of life.
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Well, first and foremost, Islam has very clear guidelines.
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I can tell you this as someone who has memorized the Quran, someone who has gone to the most prestigious Islamic institution in the world, and graduated from there.
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So I'm speaking from a place of Samma authority.
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The Quran is very clear that we're not allowed to kill civilian life.
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من قتل نفسا بغير نفس أو فساد في الأرض فكأنما قتل النساء جميع
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In chapter 5 verse 32 it says that whoever kills a person unless they commit murder
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or that they've done corruption in the land is like killing all of humanity.
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The Prophet Muhammad said Then من قتل معاهدا لم يرح رائحة الجنة Whoever kills a non-believer,
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a non-believer he will not smell the fragrance of paradise.
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So clearly here, you're missing, I think, confusing Islam with the Old Testament.
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Maybe you're confusing it with 1 Samuel's, where it says that you have to kill the men, the women, the children, and the donkey as well.
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Or maybe you're confusing it with Deuteronomy 22.
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Or maybe you're confusing it with Numbers 31.
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I don't know what you're confusing it with, but you're certainly not representing Islam in the correct manner.
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And you don't find any equivalent, and I challenge you, since you're making a theological claim, you came right into my playing field.
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I challenge you to find anything in the Old Testament that is remotely,
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remotely as categorical in denying civilian death as you find in the Quran and Sunnah.
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That's number one, since you want to make a theological case.
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Number two, now he's trying to link Islam with, for example, he mentioned violence.
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And then he mentioned something about immigrants, depending on welfare and all those kind of things.
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What's Islam got to do with any of that?
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Is there a necessary link between Islam and someone being poor? for example, is that there necessarily?
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I don't understand the argument here.
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Where is, you said the tenets of Islam.
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Jihad is not actually a pillar of Islam in the first place.
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There's five pillars of Islam, if you didn't know, and jihad is not one of them.
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So you're already famous on these matters.
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You shouldn't even be speaking.
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You said you're gonna stick to your lane.
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You didn't even stay on your lane.
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You started speaking about theology.
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And then you started talking about the Muslim Brotherhood, as if they have a presence here in the UK.
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What I want to know from you is that since you think they do, and you're using the word infiltration, I want to know exactly who you're talking about, what institutions they have infiltrated,
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and give me specific, objective, factual criterion for what you're talking about.
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Since you've made this claim, and it's a cause-based argument between the religion itself and the practitioners,
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I will leave it to you to explain to me exactly what institutions have been infiltrated, which by the way, the definition of infiltration is to covertly,
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okay, covertly influence a group through secretive means.
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That's the Cambridge definition of infiltration.
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And you'll find, and we're going to speak about this, that if you think about the Israel lobby, which we'll speak about after this, it fits the definition, I think, much better, but we can speak about that later.
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I want to know exactly what Muslim brotherhoods you're talking about in England.
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I want to know what institutions you're talking about.
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I want to know exactly what you mean by this infiltration.
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And is this a systemic effort by these people to try and take over the country?
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And if so, give me the exact data points that you're referring to.
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Before I go to Jonathan for the answer, just to clarify for viewers, what do you perceive, Mohammed,
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to be the difference between Islam and Islamism?
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Because people hear these phrases, they hear these words, a lot of people get confused.
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What is the difference?
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Well, the difference from a political science perspective, right, is that Islamism is an attempt to politicize Islam.
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That's usually the definition that political scientists use.
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However, I mean, the fact is this.
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I mean, Islam has always been a political system.
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So we don't know exactly where that starts and where that ends because this construct, Islamism, I would say is a social construct and it's a Eurocentric view.
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We don't have this distinction.
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We've never had it in our texts.
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We've never had it in our medieval manuals.
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So the fact is, this is a Western construct in political science that's used to try
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and distinguish between Muslims who are attempting political participation in some way, violent or non-violent, versus Muslims who are not doing that.
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OK, Jonathan Koum-Rickers, your response to that, and specific to what he said about the Muslim Brotherhood and the evidence of infiltration in the UK?
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Yeah, not only the UK.
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And I think it's an interesting answer from someone who clearly has clerical and religious knowledge.
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The al-Azhar University is one of the driving forces of the Muslim Brotherhood and its teaching.
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It's a known center for a very extremist part of Islamic interpretation.
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That's where many of the world's terrorists and the scholars of al-Qaeda,
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ISIS, Daesh, Hamas, and many others were given their education, if you'd use that word.
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So I'm happy that you mentioned your pedigree and you informed the people
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that you're on the same boat in the same ideological boat and background as Qaddawi and many other extremists,
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that indeed what they aspire to do by their sayings and by their writings and by their actions is world domination.
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It is the caliphate, it is to take control over first lands that Islam conquered violently in the seventh and eighth century,
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and since then have been lost back to Europeans and Jews and others, Christians and others, to first take back those lands
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and then by force and by other means to take control over other lands of Europe
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and of the west and it's very good that you mentioned
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that this is where you come from
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and I strongly urge people our viewers to take a deep
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dive into the more stellar scholars of the al-azhar university in Egypt
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and to see what kind of benign benevolent benevolent thinking has come out of
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that university undoubtedly one of You might answer in a question and I'll ask you about the evidence now.
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If not the oldest in the Muslim world.
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And it really is telling...
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So what's the evidence on Muslim infiltration, Jonathan?
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Yeah, you weren't interrupted, even though it was tempting.
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I didn't interrupt you, even when you falsely credited and cited me out of context, which was quite laughable.
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Don't weasel out of it now, Jonathan.
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Don't weasel out of it now.
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It was very clear what you said.
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It was very clear what you said.
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We are speaking now.
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We're speaking to each other.
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It was very clear what you said.
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And people can go to that same YouTube video and they can check it out.
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You are encouraging and you are incentivizing this American politician to kill civilians.
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That's what happened.
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Do you deny that?
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Do you deny that?
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Be a man.
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Be a man and speak the truth.
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Don't be a weasel.
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Don't be a coward.
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Don't be a coward.
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Don't backtrack now.
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Why are you backtracking like a puss of animals?
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Why are you backtracking like a puss solanimous?
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Why?
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You are interrupting and we agreed not to interrupt.
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Why are you not interrupting?
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Let Jonathan answer the question.
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Yeah, go on.
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Yeah, well, I'll answer your questions, Piers, not of...
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Sure, but I thought it was a relevant question that when we talk about infiltration in the UK...
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That's totally fine.
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Do you have evidence of that?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so I'll bring an example from Sweden because I didn't confine myself to the UK,
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But I could probably dig up a few examples from Sweden, from the UK.
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But for instance, in Sweden, the society that represents Muslims in Sweden, which, by the way, probably similar to the situation in the UK,
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is state funded and supported by Swedish taxpayers' money.
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When you do a close analysis
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or just a basic analysis of what they hand out and what they disseminate to Muslims in Sweden,
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it is almost identical to the teachings of the Muslim Brotherhood in terms of the goal,
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the objective and the means and how Muslims should operate in Swedish society.
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And this has been researched by an Egyptian, Coptic, Swedish PhD doctor, who I think also,
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by the way, studied a bit at El Azhar. And he's...
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Now you're referencing an academic from the institution you were just perspatching, are you?
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Again, you're interrupting.
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Again, you're interrupting.
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That's a little bit ironic, I think.
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Again, you are interrupting.
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That's a bit ironic there, Jonathan, don't you think?
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I'm answering a question.
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Go ahead, man.
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And again, you're interrupting.
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But just get to the point, because we don't hate your filibusters and your diatribes.
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You know, interruptions, just tell me that you have very little substance and you resolve.
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You're boring peers as viewers and you're boring public.
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All right.
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But let me ask Mohammed a question, which I think a lot of people want to know the answer to,
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which is there are estimates that there are 80 to 85 informal Sharia councils operating across the UK.
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These obviously have no legal justification under British law.
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but you would accept, I assume, that they can have enormous influence over the local communities in which they operate.
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I think that these particular councils are completely overestimated, especially by right-wing outlets, because what they really are, the opinions of some people like me,
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who have essentially come out of universities, and two people will come into those places and say, well, this is what's happened, but this is what's happened, and say, well, you've got the truth on your side, you've got the truth on your side.
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people can leave that place agreeing or disagreeing with the person in question.
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It has absolutely no enforcement power.
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But do you understand why a lot of people in the UK feel apprehensive?
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It's a very short step from that.
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Here goes the argument.
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It's the same with the Jewish community, though.
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I know, but we'll come to that.
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We've got the same thing.
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Let me just put to you the argument, which is that people say, well, look, we've got all these unofficial Sharia courts, Sharia councils.
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that it's, as you see the Muslim population of the UK, and it's happening in the US as well, exponentially increasing, which it will,
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just on sheer numbers, that there will be an increasing influence on the political stratosphere, if you like, up and down the ladder.
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And as a result of that, you may end up, this is the fear that people have,
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you may end up with Sharia law being pushed to be incorporated into British law.
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Now, could you ever see that happening?
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What is being done in Muslim communities maybe to stop that happening?
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Well, first and foremost, these ideas of Sharia courts, as I've mentioned, they have absolutely no legal enforcement power whatsoever.
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So it's just the opinions of people.
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You can have an LGBTQ council, you can have a feminist council, and as we do have, we have Jewish councils.
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So if the argument is going to be made, and here's really what I find quite incredulous, if I'm being honest.
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almost every argument you can make about the Sharia, you can make about the halakha, which is the Jewish equivalent.
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In fact, my argument is in most of those instances when it comes to gender interaction, divorce for women, where they have to get something called a get,
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anything which is that a woman cannot get divorced without the man's permission in Judaism.
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It's even more severe than Catholicism.
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That they have those courts in the Jewish community.
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So if you want to say that they're not allowed in the Muslim communities and you want to have a consistent principle, then you have to now start applying that consistent principle to people like you, Jonathan.
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Of course, you don't believe in that because you believe in killing the civilians
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and you're a coward and a pusillanimous
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and you now have a forked tongue on Piers Morgan's show because when you are on Mario Nalfal's show, you're making the argument with this American diplomat.
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When you come on Piers Morgan's show because you know it's a bigger audience, much bigger audience, what you're doing is you are putting your tail,
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your micro tail between your legs and you're scurrying and running away, running away like you did in the first debate with Mario Norfolk.
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All right, let me put a different question to Jonathan.
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I'm not even going to respond to your...
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Yeah, you can, but also, Jonathan, the question I would put to you is, what we're seeing, and I think you were at one of these events, you're seeing the pro-Israeli
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and what many perceive to be an anti-Muslim lobby making allies in the UK with people like Tommy Robinson
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and what people think are his thuggish group of supporters.
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I think I'm right in saying you were at one of his rallies.
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So there is a rising concern, conversely, about that going on in the UK as well.
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You know, you supporting people like Tommy Robinson, are you comfortable with that?
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Yeah, you try that gotcha the last time I was in studio.
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It's not gotcha, I mean, you were there.
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I'm just asking you whether you're comfortable supporting him.
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Oh, yeah, you know, as I said, in studio, when we spoke about it and you had some other clown representing the other side in studio alongside me,
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who is as laughable as Muhammad is now with, you know, personal insults.
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Well, you weren't going to get personal, you said, at the start of this.
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Yeah, well, I'm responding in kind to the level of conversation here.
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I'll say this.
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When I walked on the streets of London in the Unite the Kingdom march,
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what I heard was a lot of patriotic love for England and the UK.
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I didn't hear a lot of hate speech.
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I didn't hear people say bad things about other people.
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Yes, you showed me a clip of some lady who said things about Islam out of that house, and we debated it in studio.
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I don't think we have to go over it again, but I'm happy to do it.
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But I think the bottom line here is, and I think that what people around Europe are saying pretty clearly,
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whether it's just two days ago or a day ago in Germany or in continuous elections in Scandinavia and in France,
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in many other places in East Europe, a lot of people are signaling their frustration with this unchecked
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and reckless immigration of people who are importing a foreign mindset to Europe.
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And I think a lot of people understand...
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But I would say to that...
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Okay, but I would say to that...
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Same argument with the British Committee.
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I would say to that...
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Why doesn't that...
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Well, hang on, let me just make a point.
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I think there has been clearly a collective failure right across the continent of Europe in how migration, immigration has been managed and handled.
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Everyone would have to accept that.
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And I think the rise of a lot of right-wing populist groups and leaders is a consequence of that.
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And it's a consequence because it's inarguable.
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You can't look at the failure of border control across Europe and not think it's been a failure.
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But it's also...
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I'd say that it's more than border-controlled peers.
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Well, but my question is...
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It's the underlying ideology.
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No, I understand.
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It's the underlying ideology that you can import people.
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But this comes to my point, though.
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This comes to my point, which is that I keep hearing from my friends in America who are pumped this narrative all the time,
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that Britain is being overrun by Muslims.
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They've taken control.
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We're all living in terror of the Muslim community.
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And I don't recognise any of that.
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I live in London for most of the year.
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There are millions of Muslims in our country,
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and most of them have assimilated extremely well with communities and are not violent jihadists.
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And I certainly don't feel like my country's been overrun by Muslims.
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So when you start talking about the ideology, Jonathan, I say, well, what you're saying is it is wrong to allow
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so many Muslims to be in the UK, for example.
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And to which I say, well, where's the evidence that the Muslim communities in the UK are causing any more problems than any other communities?
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I mean, do you have it?
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I'm happy that you ask.
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The UK, I think, has the authorities in the UK are doing pretty effective influence operations on the British population
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and significantly denying people statistics and data about the nationality and background of offenders.
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I think it's very telling when you look at a rare country in Europe, which is one of the top countries in the world on everything,
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on quality of life and tolerance and life expectancy and all of the other metrics.
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And that's Denmark.
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Denmark is a country that actually profiles crime, criminals and their ethnic and religious background background
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and it compiles very interesting data now since societies we could say
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that there are similarities between lutheran or christian denmark
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and the uk i'd say that it's there is some level of information
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that we can deduce from the statistics
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and i would urge viewers to have a look at official danish police data about the identity
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and religion you are aware jonathan you are aware jonathan i've I've said this before on the show.
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The vast majority of crime in the UK is committed by white Christians.
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It's a population-related answer, obviously.
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Not if you look at it percentage-wise. Can I...
398
There are populations that are represented...
399
It remains a fact that the vast majority of crime...
400
And what you'll never read on Tommy Robinson's social media is anything about crimes committed by white Christians.
401
He's making a deliberate decision to only post information when it's a Muslim offender.
402
And I think that creates...
403
And that is one of the reasons why, in America, they have this ridiculous view that we're being overrun by Muslims.
404
Mohammed.
405
I just want to make a couple of...
406
Because you did speak twice, Jonathan.
407
Well, let Mohammed respond to that.
408
You have spoken twice.
409
On that point, Mohammed, look, the argument, I guess what I just said is, that when you look at it as a proportion of the Muslim population, 5% of the country is Muslim in the UK.
410
What do you say to those who say, well, you have a disproportionate amount of offenders in the Muslim community?
411
Yeah, so let's take a look at a couple of things here.
412
The first thing is I asked him to give me evidence that there's systemic infiltration, as he claimed, right?
413
And then he gave me one scanty piece of secondary source material, which is not even evidence.
414
In Sweden, which is a country which is barely recognisable in the grand scheme of things in terms of population, I don't know how many millions there are, 10 million people in Sweden or something like that, It's a very small country,
415
but comparative to like the US and the UK and etc. So that's number one.
416
He couldn't even find it.
417
If it was so systemic and if it was so obvious and it was glaring, then he would have had
418
so many case study examples of the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK
419
and the US and all these groups
420
that he's talking about infiltrating in a systemic way the institutions that in fact the pro-Israel lobbies are doing overtly.
421
They're not even hiding it.
422
Hundreds of millions of pounds in America.
423
What are you shaking your head about?
424
This is a fact, okay?
425
OK, it's in high air.
426
I just mentioned that you're hundreds of millions of hundreds of millions of pounds in primaries and stuff like that.
427
That's a fact.
428
You can you can argue.
429
So that's why I'm checking my head.
430
This is a funny.
431
OK, hold on.
432
Let me just continue.
433
Let me continue.
434
None of it is foreign.
435
Jonathan, let me continue my point because you can come back and respond in kind.
436
But let me just finish first.
437
The second point that you made was we talked about per capita, essentially percentage.
438
So let's take a very famous situation, grooming gangs.
439
This is a very famous situation.
440
Now, what is usually presented is what happens in Telford or Rochdale or one of these places.
441
And in those places, admittedly, there is over-representation of Pakistani Muslims in those cases.
442
But when you look at the CSA report, which is the most authoritative report that was conducted in 2025 based on home office data and ONS data,
443
That report, on a percentage basis, says that there are 83% white people in this country,
444
as a percentage, and they commit 88% of the child sexual exploitation offences.
445
Whereas there's 2% Pakistanis, you were saying that in Denmark, they have categorisations based on ethnicity, and in the UK they don't have that.
446
That's factually incorrect.
447
As I've just cited a source for you, which is the most authoritative source, 2% are Pakistanis in this country.
448
There are 2% Pakistanis.
449
And of them, 2%, according to this, which is the most authoritative data,
450
commit the grooming gang or the sexually child exploitation offenses.
451
So it's actually not disproportionate.
452
White people are disproportionately represented.
453
Pakistani people are not disproportionately represented on a national basis, on the most used example, which is grooming gangs.
454
Admittedly, once again, I have to be concessionary here.
455
If you look at prisons, for example, there is an over-representation of Muslims.
456
Why is that?
457
There's an over-representation of blacks.
458
You can say, what, is it because of their skin color?
459
Is there something genetic within them?
460
The reason I propose why there's an over-representation of black people
461
or Muslims or Pakistanis or Somalis or whoever it may be in prisons in the UK is not to do with religion, as you're making a cause-based argument, and has to do with socioeconomics.
462
When people are poor in a country, they are more likely to commit crime.
463
So black people from the Caribbean, for example, or Muslim people that have been colonized before in their second generation
464
and their poor working class people are more likely to commit crimes and therefore more likely to be in prisons.
465
So this is something very easy to understand.
466
And this thesis, which is that socioeconomics is the main determinant for criminal behavior, is the most compelling thesis,
467
which if you look at all of the different countries in the Western countries, tells the data the best.
468
The Islamic data thesis If you look at countries
469
which have got more money Muslim countries that have got more money They commit less crimes
470
Money and crimes are related somehow When you have less money, you commit more crimes When you have more money, when you're poorer You're more likely to commit petty crimes That's
471
it It's not to do with skin color It's not to
472
do with your religion It's not like they're looking at the verses of the Quran And saying, yes, now I'm going to implement this on the people There's not even one example of
473
that In the grooming examples No one says, yeah, I'm going to intoxicate this woman over here which is haram, religiously, not allowed, prohibited, to give her alcohol,
474
which is a prohibited Islam, and groom her, give her drugs.
475
No one says, yeah, I'm doing this because Islam tells me to do so.
476
OK, let me get Jonathan's response to that, and I'm going to get a proposition too.
477
Jonathan.
478
Yeah, I think what we should be looking at is what needs to be done.
479
And, you know, we can spin around in circles and...
480
You've got to respond to what I've just said, Jonathan, please.
481
Talk, I mean, you don't respond to me, so I'm not going to respond to you.
482
So you don't have an answer then, do you?
483
Of course I do.
484
I have many answers.
485
I don't want to be sidetracked by your nonsense because that is essentially what you want to do.
486
I think now you just concede the debate.
487
Concede the debate.
488
You've lost.
489
You have no response here.
490
You want to divert the core issue at hand here.
491
You are trying to divert the core issue at hand here.
492
And that is the threat to Western civilization.
493
And what I think people in the West should be cognizant of
494
is that this is the biggest threat that that civilization is facing.
495
And no fancy talk and smoke screens and mirrors that you will provide.
496
Many of them factually wrong, by the way.
497
If you look at data in Denmark,
498
Muslims, Algerians, Moroccans, Palestinians, Syrians and Afghanis are overrepresented by a factor of 10 and 15 in violent crime,
499
in rape, in rape and in heavy assault and in murder.
500
And those are facts.
501
According to who?
502
Give me the source.
503
I'll ask you to stop interrupting me.
504
No, no, give me the source.
505
You've just made a very, very...
506
You've made a big claim.
507
Muhammad, stop interrupting me.
508
I didn't interrupt you.
509
And I want to focus on the issue here that is at hand.
510
You just want to lie.
511
Okay, go ahead.
512
There are examples.
513
There are examples of countries around the world who,
514
without saying so, have a clear policy of minimizing Muslim immigration into their countries,
515
whether it's Japan, South Korea, Denmark, three countries in Eastern Europe,
516
Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, and other examples of countries that silently, because it's not politically correct to say it and it offends
517
and it kind of goes against the grain of a lot of basic beliefs in Western society, But what they're doing is effectively,
518
one, limiting the amount of people from Muslim countries that are eligible to come in.
519
And if they are eligible to come in, what they do, and this is very important because there is hope that people can adopt.
520
There is hope that also Muslims who come with a mindset
521
that is basically medieval and with intentions of taking over countries and waging jihad against the non-believers.
522
I think this is...
523
OK, OK.
524
Unfortunately...
525
All right, listen, listen.
526
I want to move...
527
You're not equipped for this.
528
Just for time purposes, I want to be fair to both propositions.
529
Let's move to proposition two.
530
Israel's influence on Western politics, especially US foreign policy, is now the greatest threat to global stability and must be reversed as soon as possible.
531
Mohamed, you go first on this.
532
Yeah, absolutely.
533
I mean, think about what just happened with Iran.
534
I mean, according to John Misham, who you've had on your show as well, He is probably one of the most recognized political scientists, scholars in the Western world today.
535
I mean, America signed the surrender document, which is on the 18th of June.
536
And now they've lost the law, the war.
537
They've actually cost the taxpayer.
538
According to Mark Zandi, who's an economist at Moody,
539
he says that the average American household has to pay $1,000 per annum to fund this war through groceries
540
and interest rates and other things, and through petrol and gasoline.
541
So imagine you, who have been on the record trying to get people to go to Iran,
542
American people, white people, to die for you.
543
Maybe you see them as subhuman.
544
I don't know, because already you've justified civilian deaths
545
so maybe you do see them as subhuman i don't know
546
what the situation is you want them to die for you
547
you want them to spend their money for your war
548
which brings about absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the uk for the us
549
or for any of those countries and in fact the major beneficiary is obviously israel
550
and at the same time i'll ask you one question jonathan
551
just to show you this you don't want to have a
552
reciprocal relationship you don't want to have The reason is because 18 service people,
553
American service people, died for this Israeli war that Netanyahu is bragging about.
554
Name me one Israeli that has died for an American war.
555
You ought to have an asymmetrical, non-reciprocal relationship with the American and British public.
556
Your foreign minister was just saying, threatening the UK, saying that if the UK does this and that with the settlements, that we have tools, they said.
557
They're threatening the UK.
558
They are threatening the US.
559
They're lobbying.
560
They're paying hundreds of millions of dollars to try
561
and get them to go into wars
562
so they can influence politicians undemocratically in a way that's not in the interest of the populace, not in the interest of America, not in the interest of Europe,
563
not in the interest of the United Kingdom, and kill...
564
You want them to fight on your behalf because you're a coward.
565
You run away from things just like you ran away from the debate.
566
You only have fights with militia groups which you can't even defeat because Hamas is still, you're still negotiating with them.
567
You said you were going to defeat them three years ago.
568
You're still negotiating with them.
569
You couldn't even finish them.
570
You lost the war.
571
You should be ashamed of yourself.
572
You're an embarrassment.
573
You're telling these people to die for you.
574
Go and you fight yourself.
575
You go and fight yourself.
576
Israel, go boots on the ground, Karg Island.
577
You fight yourself.
578
Why do you want Americans to die for you?
579
Why are you a coward?
580
You go first.
581
You go and fight them first.
582
Why do you want them to die and you're not dying for them?
583
Let him respond.
584
Jonathan.
585
Well, if your way of trying to tell a story about Israeli influence is to speak on behalf of the Iranian regime,
586
which brutalizes its own people, which is the biggest international state sponsor of terrorism,
587
which fires ballistic missiles and kills civilians and drones around the Middle East
588
and oppresses its own people under the power of radical Islam.
589
If your best argument to speak about so-called Israeli influence in the West is to bring up Iran,
590
then I thought more of you coming into this interview than I do now.
591
And none of the nonsense that you're trying to rage bait me with is going to work.
592
I've been through more qualified debaters than you and I'm not even going to respond to it.
593
What I would say is the following.
594
What I would say is the following.
595
I would say that, unfortunately, you know, I'll acknowledge the fact that Pete Hexeth and various American generals,
596
commanders of CENTCOM and even the president have said that Israel is a model ally.
597
Why have they said that?
598
They've said it because before we ask anybody to fight for us, we fight for ourselves.
599
And of all of America's allies, perhaps except for the UK in the Second World War,
600
Israel is a country that first asks its own people to fight, its own service members to fight, and unfortunately has its own civilians exposed.
601
When was the last time an Israeli died for a U.S war?
602
When was the last time an Israeli died for a U.S war? in the last round of fighting
603
when Iran fired ballistic missiles at Israel.
604
Sadly, we had 98 Israeli civilians that were killed and one off-duty Israeli soldier who was at home.
605
So it's a very clear situation.
606
And unfortunately, I can give a lot of examples where things are very different.
607
Do you understand?
608
Try to make this conversational, Jonathan.
609
Look, with all due respect, this is going to get boring if you just keep talking and not engaging.
610
You're not engaging, you're not tracking, you're not engaging or interacting with any question.
611
You're not interacting with anything I've put on the table.
612
You're not interacting with anything at all.
613
Do you want to finish off?
614
Hurry up, because we're getting bored now.
615
We're getting bored of this.
616
By interrupting, you make no points.
617
Make no point, hurry up, because we're getting bored you're not going to be allowed to speak over me.
618
I didn't interrupt you, even though you speak nonsense and you're way out of your depth, but I allowed you to speak and you try your personal insults,
619
which are actually quite ridiculous.
620
But I can give a long list,
621
unfortunately, of factual examples of why U.S policy significantly differs from Israeli interests and policy.
622
One example would be the situation in Syria.
623
The Syrian regime under Bashar al-Assad was under severe American sanctions, the Caesar Act and many other sanctions.
624
The Americans have taken them off the sanctions list and it has come at exactly zero benefit to Israel, even significant threats to our national security.
625
Another example would be Turkey.
626
As Erdogan speaks about waging holy war against Israel and marching on Jerusalem, our capital,
627
and as his minister of the interior speaks about being the governor of Jerusalem in the future,
628
the U.S is pondering providing that autocrat with F-35s, the pinnacle of American weapon systems systems
629
and a lot of fighting had to be done in order to prevent that from happening.
630
That's another example.
631
A third example would be Saudi Arabia or the Houthis.
632
The Houthis, the U.S., made a direct deal with the Houthis over Israel's head
633
and left Israel out of the calculations
634
and basically green-lighted the Houthis to fire missiles towards Israel as long as they didn't fire them at the U.S.
635
And I could go on with a long list of actual examples, not nonsense and cheap propaganda,
636
but actual examples of real world politics where U.S policy always takes primacy over Israeli interests.
637
And I think that if you try to convince the world
638
that bringing down the Iranian regime is a bad thing that doesn't serve the purposes of the free world, man, you really have got it wrong,
639
and I think you should re-evaluate where you stand because that regime is evil incarnated.
640
It oppresses people.
641
It doesn't allow people to have any civil rights.
642
And I think that even just aligning yourself with them
643
and saying that that is a regime that shouldn't be touched and shouldn't be held responsible for their aggressions, I think speaks very poorly.
644
Okay, well, let me ask Mohamed this.
645
So the argument that Israel is a threat to peace, the biggest threat to peace, some people on your side of this argument would say,
646
is countered by the fact that the top 10 designated terrorist organizations in the world right now are all Muslim.
647
ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Taliban, al-Shabaab, Hezbollah, Hamas, Lashkar al-Tabi,
648
Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine, the Tariq, Taliban in Pakistan,
649
which prompts the question, Why are so many Muslims clearly drawn to terrorism with these groups,
650
do you think?
651
Well, let's start with his non-answer, because I asked him a question, which in the beginning he decided to, for some reason, he's not engaging with any question that I put to him.
652
I'm engaging with every single question, and people can see this.
653
I asked him, give me an example.
654
We've got 18 people that have died in America, American service people that have died for Israel.
655
Give me an example of one Israeli that has died for an American war.
656
And he went here, there and there.
657
Okay, well, look, viewers can see.
658
Yeah, they can see that.
659
Viewers can see.
660
So they can also see.
661
I've asked you a question.
662
You've asked me a question right now.
663
What is the answer to that?
664
Why are so many Muslims gravitating to these groups?
665
Of course, there is an issue with Islamic terrorism.
666
I mean, if someone is not concessionary with this issue and says that there is something called radical Islam, there are people who actually believe in killing civilians, there are people who believe in these kinds of things,
667
then they would be obviously trying to fool the public.
668
We're not trying to fool the public.
669
but the designation of terrorist groups would fall into the legalistic fallacy.
670
I mean, just because the West designates a certain group as a terrorist organization, in those cases, I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't do so,
671
okay, with other groups like, for example, Israel.
672
This man here who I'm speaking to, who's a spokesperson or a former spokesperson for the IDF, literally, and he's trying to run away from it,
673
was justifying the targeting of civilians to the point where the interlocutor was astounded with what he was saying.
674
Well, OK, but he was...
675
OK, what I was saying to...
676
Hang on a second, Jonathan.
677
Jonathan, hang on.
678
I know.
679
I know what you're going to say, which is that the IDF did not deliberately target civilians.
680
We've had that debate a million times.
681
He was saying that you should.
682
He was telling the Americans should target civilians.
683
That's not the point I'm going to make.
684
The point I'm going to make is we've literally just had the American ambassador to Israel,
685
Mike Huckabee, categorise some Israeli settlers as terrorists for what they're doing on the West Bank.
686
Now, Danny Danon, Jonathan, who I interviewed earlier, the Israeli ambassador to the UN, he denied that categorisation.
687
He said that is not right, it's wrong, and not terrorist.
688
What would you say?
689
He's a terrorist himself.
690
Well, I ask a question.
691
He's an extremist himself.
692
He's a radical.
693
Jonathan's not a terrorist.
694
No, hold on.
695
He was saying...
696
Wait a minute, Mohammed.
697
I ask it in the context of you making a concession that you believe there are a number of terrorist Islamist organisations.
698
So you've made that concession.
699
My question for you, Jonathan, is in light of what Huckabee said, do you accept that there are Israeli terrorists?
700
Very clearly so, and I've said it long before our good friend Huckabee said so.
701
And, you know, you call a spade a spade the behavior of some, a small group of people in Judea and Samaria,
702
is despicable, condemnable, shouldn't be allowed, should be dealt with in a much more effective way by Israeli authorities,
703
is not representative of the overwhelming majority of Israelis who live in Judea and Samaria.
704
And very simply put, these are people that are acting outside the law, and I think they should face the consequences of the law and they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing.
705
And what about people like, okay, but what, by the way, that's an important thing you've just said.
706
And I think that both of you have made consistence, which I think viewers will look at it and go, good.
707
All right, we're getting somewhere in this debate.
708
We're getting some intellectual honesty.
709
Let me ask you, Jonathan, my question is this though, the Minister of National Security in Israel,
710
Ben Gavir, criticised Israel's recent drawdown of strikes in Gaza by saying, I think targeted assassinations should be carried out in Gaza,
711
taking down 30 to 40 every night.
712
Not just those who pose an immediate threat.
713
There are people there who are not worthy of life.
714
They shouldn't live.
715
They're not even people.
716
He has the same view.
717
I'm asking the question.
718
He has the same view.
719
I'm asking the question.
720
Is that the language of a terrorist?
721
I'll say this.
722
First of all, we can see what Israel does.
723
It does not conduct targeted assassinations.
724
That wasn't my question.
725
Yeah, but it's an important part to recognise the big difference...
726
It's what he wants to do, and he is the national security minister.
727
..between talk of a politician that is, in my mind...
728
But is it the language of a terrorist, Jonathan?
729
No, it is reckless, it is ignorant, it is, I think, not really conducive to winning the war...
730
If a Palestinian politician...
731
Exactly.
732
If a Palestinian politician said that about Israelis, I think you would frame it as terrorism.
733
If, Piers, they say it every day and night.
734
They say that they would do a COVID-19 again and again and again.
735
But my point is, my point is that if the Israelis, rather like with Danny Danon,
736
who tried to draw a distinction between what Palestinians do on the West Bank to Israelis and what Israelis do to Palestinians, one is terrorism, one is not.
737
I think, again, you're trying to make this distinction and viewers will be like, well, how can it be any different?
738
No, I'm not making that distinction.
739
And I think I was pretty clear with my answer, the first answer, where I draw a very clear and distinguishable line between what is unlawful,
740
vigilante, and in some cases terrorist behavior,
741
and the fighting done by the state of Israel against an internationally recognized terror organization, which is Hamas, which you just pointed out.
742
And it's interesting to mention,
743
you know, you said all of the long list of some of the Muslim terrorist organizations that exist and have been blacklisted.
744
There are, of course, many, many others just in Gaza.
745
There are many others in Judea and Samaria and in Syria
746
and Lebanon and in Yemen and in Iraq and many other places.
747
It's full of extremist Muslim organizations that are terror organizations.
748
And when you ask the question of why do so many of these, why are all of these organizations Muslim?
749
It is because in part they are implementing the obligation of jihad.
750
they are interpreting their religious teachings and they say well
751
if we are obliged to conduct jihad
752
and yes there are different types of jihad there's spiritual jihad etc etc
753
but these lot these people are interpreting
754
and saying i'm going to do the very literary understanding of jihad
755
which is holy war against infidels and against people who think different than me
756
and i will show no mercy not to civilians not to
757
women anybody who is a non-believer a kuffar doesn't have the right to live
758
and we shall strike them down and if someone agrees to subjugate
759
and become a second class citizen under islam then we can allow him to live how benign
760
that is the isis ideology
761
and by the way coming back full circle to how we
762
started this many of those teachings come out of the al
763
azhar university okay many of the people who are the ideal
764
ones i think honestly look it's been an interesting debate you've
765
managed to keep it reasonably civilized with a few lapses into personal ad hominids can i just respond to
766
that the point i would make is this though you know
767
to me it's an important concession by both of you
768
that there are extremists on both sides who are committing acts
769
of terrorism right what we need to do as a society whether uk whether it's america wherever it is, Israel, Palestine, right?
770
You need to eliminate extremists, right?
771
That really is the challenge for where we find ourselves in the world right now.
772
The big root problem of all of these situations is extremism.
773
And I like the fact that both of you have conceded that you have terrorists in your mix.
774
You know, it's just an important concession to accept
775
that there are limits beyond which certain members of your communities are going and committing acts of terrorism.
776
So for that alone, I think this has been an interesting and important debate.
777
Thank you both very much indeed.
778
Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent.
779
The only boss around here is me.
780
If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing.
781
Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
782
And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain and we'll do it all for free.
783
Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.
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O que você vai aprender
Esse vídeo é uma excelente oportunidade para desenvolver três habilidades práticas de fala em inglês. Primeiro, a articulação em debates intensos: observe como os falantes mantêm clareza mesmo quando a discussão acalora, o que é essencial para se expressar em situações de conflito. Segundo, a compreensão de registros variados: desde insultos informais ("coward", "weasel") até termos políticos ("Sharia law", "Western values"), o diálogo exige adaptação à linguagem usada. Terceiro, a resposta rápida: aprenda a estruturar argumentos sob pressão, como os participantes fazem ao contrapor ideias sem perder a linha.
Ouça esses sons
No áudio, note exemplos de connected speech (fala conectada) que facilitam a fluência. Por exemplo, "You're an embarrassment" é frequentemente pronunciado como "You're an 'embarrassment" (com redução do "a" para "uh"). Outro caso é "don't be a coward", onde "don't be" se torna "don't be" (sem pausa entre as palavras). Além disso, a redução de "want to" para "wanna" ("I wanna try") é comum em fala coloquial, e a ligação entre "stop the boats" (pronunciado como "stop th' boats") demonstra como o "t" se torna "th" antes de um som dental. Esses detalhes ajudam a melhorar a pronúncia em inglês e a se integrar à fala nativa.
Fale como um nativo
Para imitar o ritmo e a ênfase dos falantes, use a técnica de shadow speech (ou "shadowing em inglês"): reproduza as frases imediatamente após ouvi-las, tentando igualar a velocidade e a entonação. Observe que palavras-chave como "terrorist", "Sharia law" e "Western culture" recebem mais ênfase, enquanto conectivos ("and", "but") são falados mais rapidamente. Além disso, a entonação alta no final de perguntas retóricas ("Why are you backtracking?") transmite incredulidade, uma ferramenta poderosa na fala persuasiva. Praticar com esse vídeo no seu shadowing site favorito ajudará a internalizar essas nuances, tornando sua fala mais natural e impactante.
Gramática neste vídeo
As estruturas que o falante mais usa, com as palavras exatas do vídeo:
| Estrutura | No vídeo |
|---|---|
| Frases condicionais if + oração, will/would + verbo — uma condição e seu resultado | if we have time, I would want |
| Present perfect have/has + particípio passado — uma ação passada que ainda importa agora | have lost · I've had · you've agreed |
| Voz passiva be + particípio passado — o foco está no que acontece, não em quem faz | was brought · were heard · cannot be said |
| Orações relativas who / which + oração — informação extra sobre uma pessoa ou coisa | insults, which are · people that have · law, which means |
O que é a Técnica de Shadowing?
Shadowing é uma técnica de aprendizado de idiomas com base científica, originalmente desenvolvida para o treinamento de intérpretes profissionais. O método é simples, mas poderoso: você ouve áudio em inglês nativo e repete imediatamente em voz alta — como uma sombra seguindo o falante com 1-2 segundos de atraso. Pesquisas mostram melhora significativa na precisão da pronúncia, entonação, ritmo, sons conectados, compreensão auditiva e fluência na fala.