Shadowing Practice: Talk Back: Why Arguing With Yourself Can Help You Flourish - Learn English Speaking with Video
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Arguing with yourself may be the best way to flourish.
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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Today, I'm excited to speak with Martin Seligman.
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Marty is a world-renowned psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania.
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He's the director of the Positive Psychology Center.
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His groundbreaking research has fundamentally reshaped how science understands human well-being.
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He has authored more than 30 books, including Flourish, Authentic Happiness, and his latest, Agency, The Psychological History of Human Progress.
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Well, welcome, Martin.
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I first learned of your work when I was an undergraduate.
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The work you did in Learned Helplessness was really fascinating and actually helped me want to study more in psychology.
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Thank you, and thank you for being here.
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I'm pleased to be here, Matt.
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I have to confess I'm intimidated by the title of your endeavor.
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I used to be fast, and now I'm slow, and I used to be smart, and now the best I can do is be contemplative.
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Well, I appreciate that, and we will have a lovely conversation that goes deep and contemplates lots of important things.
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Shall we get started?
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Okay.
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Excellent.
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So it is rare to get the opportunity to speak with somebody who started an entire field.
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You started the field of wellness and wellbeing and happiness research and psychology.
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We've had several guests on the show who've talked about things in this field, Sonia Lubomirsky, Laurie Santos, Arthur Brooks, and I'd love to get your take on it.
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You across the studying you do have studied something called flourishing.
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Can you share with us a bit about what flourishing is and what we can do to achieve it?
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Well, my interest in flourishing started because it was a field that psychology wouldn't touch, the question of how to be happy.
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And my experience, and probably yours, Matt, when you lie in bed at night, you're not thinking about how to go from minus eight to minus three.
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You're thinking about how to go from plus three to plus eight in life.
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Well, there was no psychology of that.
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And that was my motive for founding when I was president of the American Psychological Association,
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the field of positive psychology, which is about flourishing.
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And for me, flourishing has five elements.
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The acronym is PERMA.
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P is positive emotion, subjective well-being.
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E is engagement, how absorbed you are right now in our conversation.
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R is relationships, good relationships.
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M is one sense of meaning and mattering and a is accomplishment and achievement.
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So for me, flourishing relies on five pillars I call PRMA.
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It's very clear that each of those can help us all feel better in your work and in your research.
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Do all five need to be in place for someone to feel that sense of wellbeing and flourishing?
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Or, or is it just having one
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or two areas where you really feel accomplished or passionate is
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that enough not at all uh it's like a dashboard on an airplane
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so there are lots of dials on an airplane but
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if you want to get there as cheaply as possible it's the petrol dial
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that matters if you want to get there as comfortably as possible it's the radar
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that matters similarly with perma i'm a high meaning
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and accomplishment person those are the two of the five
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that really matter for me
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so for me uh flourishing is knowing about the techniques of more meaning in my life
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and the techniques of more accomplishment it's secondary to me the hedonics how much uh joy i feel
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and how engaged i am so uh like the dashboard on an airplane it depends on what you care about Ah,
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so each of us can reflect what's most important.
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So as I look at PERMA, I feel that relationships and meaning are what's most important in my life.
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And I can try to optimize for those as almost a
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roadmap for how we can find our way to deeper fulfillment
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and flourishing simply by thinking through these five variables and what's important for us and then how to optimize for them.
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I appreciate that and challenge everybody listening to think about where you fall on passion, enjoyment, relationship, meaning, and accomplishment.
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Some of your work talks about the internal conversations we have with ourselves, the monologue, that self-tape we have playing in our head.
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How does this shape our worldview?
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And if we're not happy with that chatter, are there things we can do to change it?
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Well, I think the most important revolution in psychology in my lifetime was the cognitive revolution.
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Before that came along, people believed that emotion was primary and what you said to yourself,
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what you thought was a product of emotion well we now know at least
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that what you think very often determines your emotion
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and your action what you think is not gospel it's often
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whispered to you by someone whose mission in life was to make you miserable
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so it's very important to be on top of your internal dialogue
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and then if you're finding it makes you depressed
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and anxious to argue against it rationally
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so a lot of what one does in flourishing and positive psychology
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which came right out of cognitive therapy was to become very sensitive to what we're saying to ourselves
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and learn how to argue against it when it was leading you places you didn't want to go.
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This idea of listening to that chatter can be hard for many of us.
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Are there techniques that you know of or perhaps use yourself that give us insight to it?
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I mean, the voice in my head, I'm just so used to hearing.
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I don't really sit and reflect on it.
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How can I best dispassionately learn about as a pessimist
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and a depressive Matt I've spent a lifetime inventing these techniques
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and using them
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and on the pessimistic depressive side the voices are always going
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to occur to you they're not eliminated what happens is you can counter them
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and so for example Matt before I came on the show with you I was quite anxious about it
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when I was thinking good heavens I'm in my 80s can I really keep up with Matt
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and talk fast and smart and I'm too old for this
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and when we came on together indeed I was thinking something like
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that but as the listener doesn't know we had three technical difficulties during the time you
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and I made friends I argued against
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that here I'm dealing with one of the experts on impromptu speech
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and i'm doing great and so i essentially argued against i just can't be fast
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and smart so i've become a an expert both at hearing what i say to myself
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but at realistically marshalling evidence against depressive and pessimistic thoughts I really appreciate that.
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And first, thank you for enduring the technical difficulties.
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And second, I actually have enjoyed our conversation in between those very much.
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And what I really like about what you have said is that the messages,
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the voices, the words that we say to ourselves are merely arguments
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that can be countered and they can be countered with evidence.
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So in a lot of my coaching work and some of my teaching work, there are a lot of people who experience what I think would generally be defined as imposter syndrome.
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The stories they're telling themselves is they don't deserve this or they're not up to the challenge.
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And what I hear you saying is you can use evidence to counter that position.
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You can say, look, you were invited to give this talk.
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You were promoted to this position.
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This is all evidence that runs counter to that story you're telling yourself.
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And I can see how that would lead to more positive feeling, or at least a reduction of the negative feeling.
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Do I have that right?
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The two things to know about the imposter syndrome are first,
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those voices that are telling you you're an imposter have nothing to do with reality.
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They have to do with deep worries, with childhood, what your parents used to say to you.
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That's part one.
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They're not realistic.
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So you should treat them as not realistic
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and then marshal all the evidence about why you got here
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and what your credentials were and that it's not an accident that you're sitting in this position now.
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So the imposter syndrome can be dealt well with those two steps.
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Absolutely.
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And thank you for that.
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And I think all of us can talk back to some of that chatter that we have in our head.
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A lot of what you have shared with us so far in your work is about becoming aware of these patterns, habits, just inclinations we have.
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With the realization of the future looms large in how we feel and what we do,
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what are some things we can do to maximize wellness, relationships, communication with that knowledge?
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Well, I think the most important thing from the pathological point of view is to be attentive to the voices
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that are talking to you,
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particularly talking about your deficits and the hopelessness of the future and becoming good at marshalling evidence against them.
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From the point of view of happiness, I think the notion of agency becomes very important.
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And indeed, agency is what my new book is about.
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It's the culmination of 60 years of work.
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And I think it's the most informative tool we have both about our futures and the human future.
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Can you define what you mean by agency?
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I found your book fascinating.
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And what are some of the key components that make up our sense of agency?
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I think there are three.
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The first is efficacy.
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And that's to what extent you believe
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that you could achieve your goals in the here
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and now the second is optimism to what extent do you
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believe you're going to be able to achieve those goals in the future and far into the future
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and the third is imagination and that is the range of goals that you can envision about your future.
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So a complete sense of efficacy of agency has efficacy, optimism, and imagination.
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You helped found the field of positive psychology.
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You are the founder of that field.
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I know from talking to people and having seen it develop that there were some naysayers, There was some resistance.
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What advice do you have for people who are initiating new ideas,
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new approaches, for helping be persuasive and influential to at least get people to consider a different approach?
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Any insights from the experience you went through getting to where you are today?
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Well, I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of your critics
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and to anticipate what's wrong uh to become comfortable with their arguments
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and to make your best arguments against it uh
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and i i'm just remembering late barbara erinreich who was one
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of the critics of positive psychology she wrote a book called bright-sided which
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compared me to the wizard of oz in the last few months of her life we got into a dialogue together
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in in which she said something like well you probably have a very dim view of me marty
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and you probably think my prospects are not very good
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because i'm uh not a perma person
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and i said well not at all Barb you're you're
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so engaged in these issues of social justice that your engagement is enormous
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and that is a health and optimism and life-preserving force
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and I remember Barbara writing me shortly before her death telling me how meaningful that was in the face of this
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merciless criticism that she had given me.
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So owning and befriending your critics is important.
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That reflection on what's important to them and where they're coming from can allow you to have a much more meaningful conversation.
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Well, Marty, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
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Thank you so much.
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As you well know, we end with three questions.
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One I will make up for you and two that I've been asking everybody.
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We've spent a lot of time talking about the internal communication we have.
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But I'm curious to understand your perspective on the external communication.
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How do we maximize our communication to help ourselves and help others?
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Well, something happened 20 years ago, which turned this field around for me.
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And that was, let's think about how people celebrate together, rather than how they fight together.
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So the question is not how you go wrong,
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but what do say to your spouse or your best friend when they come to you with a victory, with a triumph?
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And that's something that people have not worked on.
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If you can imagine a two-by-two, destructive, constructive, active, and passive,
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the only one that really works is active, constructive.
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so let me just give you an example of
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that my wife mandy is a amateur black and white photographer
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and a few years ago she came downstairs
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and said to me marty uh the editor of black
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and white magazine just called me and i won the international award for the best black and white photograph
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okay what should i say to mandy when she comes down with
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that well what i would have said until i had read
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the revolutionary work on communication in marriage uh was uh congratulations
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dear you deserve it you're a great photographer well that's called passive constructive it has no effect it's wallpaper
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but i knew the literature on active constructive and
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so here's what i said first i had to show mandy
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that i really knew what she was talking about and
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so i said was it the black and white picture of the swan
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that you took in blenham last summer that won it and she said yes It was in fact.
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I said, well, you know, Mandy, that's the most beautiful black and white picture of an animal I've ever seen.
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So that was part one, showing that you really knew what the triumph was about
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but here comes the part that's important and
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and we neglect out of haste off it
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and that's to put mandy in touch with this great victory she just had
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so i said uh mandy tell me verbatim what what did the editor of black
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and white say and
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so she went through it i said well then what do you think it is about your photography
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that could have snapped the prizes away from the new york times pull it surprise winners
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and she said well i think i'm very good with gray
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and i do a lot with nuances and then i I said, okay, well, we homeschool our children.
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How can you teach kids this technique in their drawing and photography?
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And so we talked about that.
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Then I said, Mandy, let's go to the refrigerator and open
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that bottle of Dom Perignon that's been sitting there for a decade.
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That idea of being constructive and engaged in dialogue around that really, really insightful because most people just act in a very heuristic way.
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Hey, you won an award.
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Congratulations.
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But this requires a bit more thought and presence.
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It takes a lot of work.
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And the reason we say things like what's for dinner
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or congratulations is we're not used to doing that work and it doesn't come naturally.
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But the other person knows that.
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And that's why it's wallpaper.
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So active constructive communication is a difficult technique and it takes practice and we get better at it.
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The rewards for doing that are really deep, a deepening of the relationship.
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And I appreciate that.
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Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
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I'm thinking Ludwig Wittgenstein, actually, although I've never heard him in speech.
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But I've read some of the impromptu things that he had to say.
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And the one that's on my mind right now, because I've been thinking about the question of what is the meaning of life, and is that a good question at all?
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Wittgenstein said, impromptu, I'm told, I don't know why we're here,
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but I'm pretty sure it's not to be happy.
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i i can see why
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that somebody who founded uh positive psychology would be uh enamored with that
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or are curious about it i have to ask you said
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the qu the meaning of life is a bad question the reason i think it's bad is the is
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that meaningless wears the pants here and so i think it's a yearning in
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which what we understand is meaningless and empty and
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that meaning means something like not empty and not meaningless
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so that's kind of where i am about why it's not
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a good question final question for you what are the first three ingredients
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that go into a successful communication recipe well matt that's really difficult
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because i've never prepared for speeches yeah and uh uh i've always wanted spontaneity
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and so for me i don't go through any conscious ingredients.
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And the older I've gotten, the more I've just hoped that the words would come.
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And they have.
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I think one of the key ingredients that you deploy, you just mentioned, is spontaneity.
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And you've certainly talked about this notion of empathy or perspective taking as well.
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And then being good at arguing or putting forth rational explanations.
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So I think you do have some principles that you follow.
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You might just not see them in the forefront.
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This has been a fantastic conversation.
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It's a bit of a fanboy moment for me to meet you.
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Your work has always been meaningful to me.
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It matters.
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And the work that you have done really matters.
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And this idea of agency and how we can all develop agency in ourselves and others.
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Really, really significant to well-being in general.
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Marty, thank you for your time and thank you for all the work you have done.
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Well, thank you for the opportunity not to be fast and not to be smart.
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Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Speaking with Marty was a true pleasure.
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Among the many ideas he shared, the one that stands out most to me is
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that we can change our negative self-talk and feel better by providing logical arguments that counter our negative narratives.
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To learn more about happiness and well-being, please listen to our special mini-series on the topic, including episodes 179 through 182.
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You'll hear from guests like Laurie Santos and Arthur Brooks.
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This episode was produced by Katherine Reid, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.
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Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
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Be sure to subscribe and rate us.
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Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.
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אוצר מילים והערות הגייה לשיעור הזה
שיעור הדיבור הזה ברמה C1 מבוסס על הסרטון “Talk Back: Why Arguing With Yourself Can Help You Flourish”. בסרטון הזה יש 259 משפטים ו-3205 מילים לתרגול Shadowing. הדיבור נמשך 22:31. הדובר שומר על קצב יציב של כ-142 מילים בדקה, קצב נוח לתרגול Shadowing. 83% מהמילים נמצאות בין 3,000 המילים הנפוצות ביותר באנגלית; כדאי ללמוד את השאר לפני שמתחילים.
אוצר מילים מרכזי בסרטון הזה
15 המילים המתקדמות ביותר בסרטון, עם ההגייה והמשמעות שלהן:
| מילה | הגייה | משמעות |
|---|---|---|
| impostor שם עצם | /ɪmˈpɑstɚ/ | מתחזה |
| chatter פועל | /ˈt͡ʃætɚ/ | קשקש, טָרָרָם |
| optimism שם עצם | /ˈɑptɪmɪzəm/ | אופטימיות |
| ingredient שם עצם | /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/ | מרכיב, מצרך |
| airplane שם עצם | /ˈɛɹˌpleɪ̯n/ | מָטוֹס, אווירון |
| critic שם עצם | /ˈkɹɪt.ɪk/ | מְבַקֵּר, מְבַקֶּרֶת |
| dashboard שם עצם | /ˈdæʃˌboɹd/ | לוח מחוונים |
| pessimistic שם תואר | /ˌpɛ.səˈmɪs.tɪk/ | פסימי |
| wallpaper שם עצם | /ˈwɔːlˌpeɪpə/ | טַפֶּט, טפיטי נייר |
| triumph שם עצם | /ˈtɹaɪ̯əmf/ | נִצָּחוֹן |
| minus | /ˈmaɪ.nəs/ | פחות, מינוס |
| acronym שם עצם | /ˈækɹənɪm/ | ראשי תיבות |
| contemplate פועל | /ˈkɑn.təmˌpleɪt/ | הִתְבּוֹנֵן |
| enamored שם תואר | /ɪˈnæməɹd/ | מאוהב \ מְאֹהָב |
| groundbreaking שם תואר | /ˈɡɹaʊndˌbɹeɪkɪŋ/ | פורץ־דרך |
משפטים שכדאי לחזור עליהם
משפטים קצרים ושלמים מהסרטון שאפשר להשתמש בהם בשיחה יומיומית:
- Shall we get started?
- How does this shape our worldview?
- I don't really sit and reflect on it.
- Do I have that right?
- Can you define what you mean by agency?
דקדוק בסרטון הזה
המבנים שהדובר משתמש בהם הכי הרבה, עם המילים המדויקות מהסרטון:
| מבנה | בסרטון |
|---|---|
| הווה מושלם ממושך (Present perfect continuous) have/has been + -ing — פעולה שהתחילה בעבר ועדיין נמשכת עכשיו | I've been asking · that's been sitting · I've been thinking |
| “Used to” used to + verb — הרגל או מצב שהיה נכון בעבר וכבר לא קיים | used to be · used to say |
| הווה מושלם (Present perfect) have/has + past participle — פעולה שקרתה בעבר ועדיין יש לה חשיבות או השפעה עכשיו | has fundamentally reshaped · has authored · We've had |
| סביל (Passive voice) be + past participle — הדגש הוא על מה שקורה, לא על מי שעושה את הפעולה | can be countered · be defined · were invited |
הגייה ששווה לשים לב אליה
הדובר משתמש ב-62 קיצורים וצורות מקוצרות, כמו I'm, I've, you're. אמרו אותם בצורה הקצרה, כפי שאתם שומעים אותם.
- הצלילים של “sh” ו-“zh”: flourish /ˈflʊ̈ɹ.ɪʃ/, accomplishment /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ.mənt/, marshal /ˈmɑɹʃəl/, dashboard /ˈdæʃˌboɹd/, credential /kɹɪˈdɛnʃəl/
- מילים ארוכות — שימו לב להטעמה: accomplishment /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ.mənt/, optimism /ˈɑptɪmɪzəm/, efficacy /ˈɛf.ɪ.kə.si/, ingredient /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/, pessimistic /ˌpɛ.səˈmɪs.tɪk/
צלילים שדוברי עברית מתקשים בהם:
- /w/ — שפתיים מעוגלות, לא /v/: wellness /ˈwɛl.nɪs/, wallpaper /ˈwɔːlˌpeɪpə/, swan /swɑn/, wizard /ˈwɪzɚd/
- /æ/ — פתוח יותר מה-“אֶ” העברית, לא כמו “a” ב-“cup”: chatter /ˈt͡ʃætɚ/, dashboard /ˈdæʃˌboɹd/, fascinate /ˈfæsɪneɪt/, maximize /ˈmæksəmaɪz/, passive /ˈpæs.ɪv/
- /r/ — הלשון לא נוגעת בשום מקום, לא ה-“ר” הגרונית: flourish /ˈflʊ̈ɹ.ɪʃ/, constructive /kənˈstɹʌktɪv/, depressive /dɪˈpɹɛsɪv/, impromptu /ɪmˈpɹɑmp.t(j)u/, ingredient /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/
איך לתרגל עם הסרטון הזה
- הקשיבו לכל הסרטון פעם אחת בלי לדבר, ורשמו את המילים שאתם לא מכירים.
- תרגלו Shadowing משפט אחר משפט במהירות רגילה, וחזרו על כל משפט עד שהקצב שלכם תואם את הדובר.
- הקליטו את עצמכם והשוו למקור, תוך תשומת לב למילים כמו impostor, chatter, optimism.
מהי טכניקת השאדואינג?
שאדואינג היא טכניקת למידת שפה מבוססת מדע שפותחה במקור להכשרת מתורגמנים מקצועיים ופופולרית על ידי הפוליגלוט ד"ר אלכסנדר ארגואלס. השיטה פשוטה אך עוצמתית: אתה מקשיב לאודיו באנגלית ילידית וחוזר עליו בקול רם מיד — כמו צל העוקב אחרי הדובר עם עיכוב של 1–2 שניות בלבד. בניגוד להאזנה פסיבית או תרגילי דקדוק, שאדואינג מכריח את המוח והשרירים בפה לעבד ולשחזר דפוסי דיבור אמיתיים בו זמנית. מחקרים מראים שזה משפר משמעותית את דיוק ההגייה, האינטונציה, הקצב, הדיבור המחובר, הבנת השמיעה ושטף הדיבור — מה שהופך אותו לאחת השיטות היעילות ביותר להכנה לIELTS Speaking ולתקשורת באנגלית בעולם האמיתי.