Pratique du Shadowing: Talk Back: Why Arguing With Yourself Can Help You Flourish - Apprendre l'anglais à l'oral avec la vidéo
Création de la leçon...
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Arguing with yourself may be the best way to flourish.
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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Today, I'm excited to speak with Martin Seligman.
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Marty is a world-renowned psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania.
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He's the director of the Positive Psychology Center.
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His groundbreaking research has fundamentally reshaped how science understands human well-being.
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He has authored more than 30 books, including Flourish, Authentic Happiness, and his latest, Agency, The Psychological History of Human Progress.
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Well, welcome, Martin.
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I first learned of your work when I was an undergraduate.
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The work you did in Learned Helplessness was really fascinating and actually helped me want to study more in psychology.
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Thank you, and thank you for being here.
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I'm pleased to be here, Matt.
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I have to confess I'm intimidated by the title of your endeavor.
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I used to be fast, and now I'm slow, and I used to be smart, and now the best I can do is be contemplative.
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Well, I appreciate that, and we will have a lovely conversation that goes deep and contemplates lots of important things.
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Shall we get started?
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Okay.
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Excellent.
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So it is rare to get the opportunity to speak with somebody who started an entire field.
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You started the field of wellness and wellbeing and happiness research and psychology.
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We've had several guests on the show who've talked about things in this field, Sonia Lubomirsky, Laurie Santos, Arthur Brooks, and I'd love to get your take on it.
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You across the studying you do have studied something called flourishing.
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Can you share with us a bit about what flourishing is and what we can do to achieve it?
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Well, my interest in flourishing started because it was a field that psychology wouldn't touch, the question of how to be happy.
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And my experience, and probably yours, Matt, when you lie in bed at night, you're not thinking about how to go from minus eight to minus three.
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You're thinking about how to go from plus three to plus eight in life.
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Well, there was no psychology of that.
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And that was my motive for founding when I was president of the American Psychological Association,
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the field of positive psychology, which is about flourishing.
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And for me, flourishing has five elements.
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The acronym is PERMA.
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P is positive emotion, subjective well-being.
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E is engagement, how absorbed you are right now in our conversation.
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R is relationships, good relationships.
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M is one sense of meaning and mattering and a is accomplishment and achievement.
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So for me, flourishing relies on five pillars I call PRMA.
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It's very clear that each of those can help us all feel better in your work and in your research.
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Do all five need to be in place for someone to feel that sense of wellbeing and flourishing?
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Or, or is it just having one
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or two areas where you really feel accomplished or passionate is
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that enough not at all uh it's like a dashboard on an airplane
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so there are lots of dials on an airplane but
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if you want to get there as cheaply as possible it's the petrol dial
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that matters if you want to get there as comfortably as possible it's the radar
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that matters similarly with perma i'm a high meaning
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and accomplishment person those are the two of the five
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that really matter for me
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so for me uh flourishing is knowing about the techniques of more meaning in my life
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and the techniques of more accomplishment it's secondary to me the hedonics how much uh joy i feel
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and how engaged i am so uh like the dashboard on an airplane it depends on what you care about Ah,
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so each of us can reflect what's most important.
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So as I look at PERMA, I feel that relationships and meaning are what's most important in my life.
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And I can try to optimize for those as almost a
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roadmap for how we can find our way to deeper fulfillment
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and flourishing simply by thinking through these five variables and what's important for us and then how to optimize for them.
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I appreciate that and challenge everybody listening to think about where you fall on passion, enjoyment, relationship, meaning, and accomplishment.
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Some of your work talks about the internal conversations we have with ourselves, the monologue, that self-tape we have playing in our head.
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How does this shape our worldview?
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And if we're not happy with that chatter, are there things we can do to change it?
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Well, I think the most important revolution in psychology in my lifetime was the cognitive revolution.
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Before that came along, people believed that emotion was primary and what you said to yourself,
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what you thought was a product of emotion well we now know at least
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that what you think very often determines your emotion
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and your action what you think is not gospel it's often
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whispered to you by someone whose mission in life was to make you miserable
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so it's very important to be on top of your internal dialogue
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and then if you're finding it makes you depressed
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and anxious to argue against it rationally
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so a lot of what one does in flourishing and positive psychology
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which came right out of cognitive therapy was to become very sensitive to what we're saying to ourselves
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and learn how to argue against it when it was leading you places you didn't want to go.
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This idea of listening to that chatter can be hard for many of us.
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Are there techniques that you know of or perhaps use yourself that give us insight to it?
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I mean, the voice in my head, I'm just so used to hearing.
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I don't really sit and reflect on it.
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How can I best dispassionately learn about as a pessimist
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and a depressive Matt I've spent a lifetime inventing these techniques
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and using them
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and on the pessimistic depressive side the voices are always going
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to occur to you they're not eliminated what happens is you can counter them
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and so for example Matt before I came on the show with you I was quite anxious about it
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when I was thinking good heavens I'm in my 80s can I really keep up with Matt
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and talk fast and smart and I'm too old for this
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and when we came on together indeed I was thinking something like
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that but as the listener doesn't know we had three technical difficulties during the time you
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and I made friends I argued against
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that here I'm dealing with one of the experts on impromptu speech
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and i'm doing great and so i essentially argued against i just can't be fast
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and smart so i've become a an expert both at hearing what i say to myself
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but at realistically marshalling evidence against depressive and pessimistic thoughts I really appreciate that.
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And first, thank you for enduring the technical difficulties.
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And second, I actually have enjoyed our conversation in between those very much.
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And what I really like about what you have said is that the messages,
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the voices, the words that we say to ourselves are merely arguments
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that can be countered and they can be countered with evidence.
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So in a lot of my coaching work and some of my teaching work, there are a lot of people who experience what I think would generally be defined as imposter syndrome.
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The stories they're telling themselves is they don't deserve this or they're not up to the challenge.
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And what I hear you saying is you can use evidence to counter that position.
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You can say, look, you were invited to give this talk.
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You were promoted to this position.
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This is all evidence that runs counter to that story you're telling yourself.
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And I can see how that would lead to more positive feeling, or at least a reduction of the negative feeling.
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Do I have that right?
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The two things to know about the imposter syndrome are first,
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those voices that are telling you you're an imposter have nothing to do with reality.
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They have to do with deep worries, with childhood, what your parents used to say to you.
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That's part one.
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They're not realistic.
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So you should treat them as not realistic
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and then marshal all the evidence about why you got here
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and what your credentials were and that it's not an accident that you're sitting in this position now.
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So the imposter syndrome can be dealt well with those two steps.
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Absolutely.
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And thank you for that.
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And I think all of us can talk back to some of that chatter that we have in our head.
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A lot of what you have shared with us so far in your work is about becoming aware of these patterns, habits, just inclinations we have.
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With the realization of the future looms large in how we feel and what we do,
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what are some things we can do to maximize wellness, relationships, communication with that knowledge?
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Well, I think the most important thing from the pathological point of view is to be attentive to the voices
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that are talking to you,
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particularly talking about your deficits and the hopelessness of the future and becoming good at marshalling evidence against them.
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From the point of view of happiness, I think the notion of agency becomes very important.
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And indeed, agency is what my new book is about.
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It's the culmination of 60 years of work.
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And I think it's the most informative tool we have both about our futures and the human future.
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Can you define what you mean by agency?
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I found your book fascinating.
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And what are some of the key components that make up our sense of agency?
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I think there are three.
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The first is efficacy.
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And that's to what extent you believe
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that you could achieve your goals in the here
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and now the second is optimism to what extent do you
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believe you're going to be able to achieve those goals in the future and far into the future
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and the third is imagination and that is the range of goals that you can envision about your future.
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So a complete sense of efficacy of agency has efficacy, optimism, and imagination.
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You helped found the field of positive psychology.
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You are the founder of that field.
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I know from talking to people and having seen it develop that there were some naysayers, There was some resistance.
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What advice do you have for people who are initiating new ideas,
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new approaches, for helping be persuasive and influential to at least get people to consider a different approach?
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Any insights from the experience you went through getting to where you are today?
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Well, I think it's important to put yourself in the shoes of your critics
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and to anticipate what's wrong uh to become comfortable with their arguments
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and to make your best arguments against it uh
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and i i'm just remembering late barbara erinreich who was one
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of the critics of positive psychology she wrote a book called bright-sided which
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compared me to the wizard of oz in the last few months of her life we got into a dialogue together
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in in which she said something like well you probably have a very dim view of me marty
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and you probably think my prospects are not very good
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because i'm uh not a perma person
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and i said well not at all Barb you're you're
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so engaged in these issues of social justice that your engagement is enormous
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and that is a health and optimism and life-preserving force
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and I remember Barbara writing me shortly before her death telling me how meaningful that was in the face of this
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merciless criticism that she had given me.
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So owning and befriending your critics is important.
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That reflection on what's important to them and where they're coming from can allow you to have a much more meaningful conversation.
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Well, Marty, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
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Thank you so much.
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As you well know, we end with three questions.
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One I will make up for you and two that I've been asking everybody.
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We've spent a lot of time talking about the internal communication we have.
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But I'm curious to understand your perspective on the external communication.
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How do we maximize our communication to help ourselves and help others?
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Well, something happened 20 years ago, which turned this field around for me.
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And that was, let's think about how people celebrate together, rather than how they fight together.
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So the question is not how you go wrong,
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but what do say to your spouse or your best friend when they come to you with a victory, with a triumph?
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And that's something that people have not worked on.
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If you can imagine a two-by-two, destructive, constructive, active, and passive,
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the only one that really works is active, constructive.
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so let me just give you an example of
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that my wife mandy is a amateur black and white photographer
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and a few years ago she came downstairs
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and said to me marty uh the editor of black
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and white magazine just called me and i won the international award for the best black and white photograph
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okay what should i say to mandy when she comes down with
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that well what i would have said until i had read
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the revolutionary work on communication in marriage uh was uh congratulations
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dear you deserve it you're a great photographer well that's called passive constructive it has no effect it's wallpaper
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but i knew the literature on active constructive and
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so here's what i said first i had to show mandy
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that i really knew what she was talking about and
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so i said was it the black and white picture of the swan
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that you took in blenham last summer that won it and she said yes It was in fact.
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I said, well, you know, Mandy, that's the most beautiful black and white picture of an animal I've ever seen.
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So that was part one, showing that you really knew what the triumph was about
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but here comes the part that's important and
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and we neglect out of haste off it
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and that's to put mandy in touch with this great victory she just had
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so i said uh mandy tell me verbatim what what did the editor of black
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and white say and
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so she went through it i said well then what do you think it is about your photography
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that could have snapped the prizes away from the new york times pull it surprise winners
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and she said well i think i'm very good with gray
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and i do a lot with nuances and then i I said, okay, well, we homeschool our children.
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How can you teach kids this technique in their drawing and photography?
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And so we talked about that.
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Then I said, Mandy, let's go to the refrigerator and open
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that bottle of Dom Perignon that's been sitting there for a decade.
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That idea of being constructive and engaged in dialogue around that really, really insightful because most people just act in a very heuristic way.
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Hey, you won an award.
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Congratulations.
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But this requires a bit more thought and presence.
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It takes a lot of work.
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And the reason we say things like what's for dinner
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or congratulations is we're not used to doing that work and it doesn't come naturally.
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But the other person knows that.
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And that's why it's wallpaper.
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So active constructive communication is a difficult technique and it takes practice and we get better at it.
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The rewards for doing that are really deep, a deepening of the relationship.
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And I appreciate that.
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Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
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I'm thinking Ludwig Wittgenstein, actually, although I've never heard him in speech.
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But I've read some of the impromptu things that he had to say.
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And the one that's on my mind right now, because I've been thinking about the question of what is the meaning of life, and is that a good question at all?
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Wittgenstein said, impromptu, I'm told, I don't know why we're here,
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but I'm pretty sure it's not to be happy.
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i i can see why
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that somebody who founded uh positive psychology would be uh enamored with that
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or are curious about it i have to ask you said
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the qu the meaning of life is a bad question the reason i think it's bad is the is
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that meaningless wears the pants here and so i think it's a yearning in
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which what we understand is meaningless and empty and
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that meaning means something like not empty and not meaningless
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so that's kind of where i am about why it's not
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a good question final question for you what are the first three ingredients
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that go into a successful communication recipe well matt that's really difficult
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because i've never prepared for speeches yeah and uh uh i've always wanted spontaneity
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and so for me i don't go through any conscious ingredients.
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And the older I've gotten, the more I've just hoped that the words would come.
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And they have.
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I think one of the key ingredients that you deploy, you just mentioned, is spontaneity.
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And you've certainly talked about this notion of empathy or perspective taking as well.
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And then being good at arguing or putting forth rational explanations.
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So I think you do have some principles that you follow.
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You might just not see them in the forefront.
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This has been a fantastic conversation.
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It's a bit of a fanboy moment for me to meet you.
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Your work has always been meaningful to me.
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It matters.
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And the work that you have done really matters.
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And this idea of agency and how we can all develop agency in ourselves and others.
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Really, really significant to well-being in general.
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Marty, thank you for your time and thank you for all the work you have done.
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Well, thank you for the opportunity not to be fast and not to be smart.
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Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Speaking with Marty was a true pleasure.
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Among the many ideas he shared, the one that stands out most to me is
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that we can change our negative self-talk and feel better by providing logical arguments that counter our negative narratives.
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To learn more about happiness and well-being, please listen to our special mini-series on the topic, including episodes 179 through 182.
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You'll hear from guests like Laurie Santos and Arthur Brooks.
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This episode was produced by Katherine Reid, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.
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Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
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Be sure to subscribe and rate us.
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Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.
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Vocabulaire et conseils d’expression pour cette leçon
Cette vidéo contient 259 phrases et 3205 mots à répéter en shadowing. La partie parlée dure 22:31. Le locuteur parle à un rythme régulier d’environ 142 mots par minute, confortable pour le shadowing. 83 % des mots font partie des 3 000 mots les plus courants en anglais ; le reste mérite d’être vu avant de commencer.
Vocabulaire clé de cette vidéo
15 mots de la vidéo à retenir, avec leur prononciation et leur sens :
| Mot | Prononciation | Sens |
|---|---|---|
| flourish verbe | /ˈflʊ̈ɹ.ɪʃ/ | fleurir |
| psychology nom | /saɪˈkɑ.lə.d͡ʒi/ | psychologie |
| argue verbe | /ˈɑɹ.ɡju/ | affirmer, débattre |
| constructive adjectif | /kənˈstɹʌktɪv/ | constructif |
| happiness nom | /ˈhæpinɪs/ | bonheur |
| emotion nom | /ɪˈməʊ.ʃən/ | émotion |
| accomplishment nom | /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ.mənt/ | accomplissement |
| congratulations | /kənˌɡɹæt͡ʃəˈleɪʃ(ə)nz/ | félicitations |
| dialogue nom | /ˈdaɪəˌlɑɡ/ | dialogue, conversation |
| syndrome nom | /ˈsɪndɹoʊm/ | syndrome |
| podcast nom | /ˈpɑdˌkæst/ | podcast, balado |
| meaningful adjectif | /ˈmiː.nɪŋ.fl̩/ | significatif, qui a du sens |
| critic nom | /ˈkɹɪt.ɪk/ | critique |
| airplane nom | /ˈɛɹˌpleɪ̯n/ | avion, aéroplane |
| marshal nom | /ˈmɑɹʃəl/ | maréchal, marshal |
Les verbes à particule que vous entendrez
| Mot | Prononciation | Sens |
|---|---|---|
| go through verbe | traverser | |
| come along verbe | accompagner, venir | |
| come down with verbe | tomber malade, attraper | |
| keep up with verbe | aller de pair avec | |
| make up verbe | /ˌmeɪk ˈʌp/ | constituer, composer |
La grammaire de cette vidéo
Les structures que le locuteur utilise le plus, avec les mots exacts de la vidéo :
| Structure | Dans la vidéo |
|---|---|
| « Used to » used to + verbe — une habitude ou un état passé qui n’est plus vrai | used to be · used to hearing · used to say |
| Present perfect continu have/has been + -ing — une action commencée avant et toujours en cours | I've been asking · I've been thinking |
| Present perfect have/has + participe passé — une action passée qui compte encore maintenant | has authored · who've talked · have studied |
| Voix passive be + participe passé — l’accent est mis sur ce qui arrive, pas sur qui le fait | can be countered · be defined · were invited |
Prononciation à surveiller
Le locuteur utilise 62 contractions et formes réduites, comme I'm, I've, you're. Prononcez-les sous leur forme courte, telles que vous les entendez.
- Les sons « sh » et « zh »: flourish /ˈflʊ̈ɹ.ɪʃ/, emotion /ɪˈməʊ.ʃən/, accomplishment /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ.mənt/, congratulations /kənˌɡɹæt͡ʃəˈleɪʃ(ə)nz/, marshal /ˈmɑɹʃəl/
- Mots longs — placez bien l’accent: psychology /saɪˈkɑ.lə.d͡ʒi/, accomplishment /əˈkɑm.plɪʃ.mənt/, congratulations /kənˌɡɹæt͡ʃəˈleɪʃ(ə)nz/, ingredient /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/, efficacy /ˈɛf.ɪ.kə.si/
Comment s’entraîner avec cette vidéo
- Écoutez la vidéo en entier une fois sans parler et notez les mots que vous ne connaissez pas.
- Répétez phrase par phrase à vitesse normale, en reprenant chacune jusqu’à ce que votre rythme corresponde à celui du locuteur.
- Enregistrez-vous et comparez avec l’original, en faisant attention à des mots comme flourish, psychology, argue.
Qu'est-ce que la technique du Shadowing ?
Le Shadowing est une technique d'apprentissage des langues fondée sur la science, développée à l'origine pour la formation des interprètes professionnels. Le principe est simple mais puissant : vous écoutez de l'anglais natif et le répétez immédiatement à voix haute — comme une ombre suivant le locuteur avec un décalage de 1 à 2 secondes. Les recherches montrent une amélioration significative de la précision de la prononciation, de l'intonation, du rythme, des liaisons, de la compréhension orale et de la fluidité.