쉐도잉 연습: Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101 - 영상으로 영어 말하기 배우기

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what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy

dr orna goralnik welcome back to call her daddy i am in shock

that it's been what i think it's three plus years right unbelievable

i i i sort of didn't feel like it was three years i it feels like a year

and a half ago right yeah i guess it's also

because like we do stay connected and we do communicate through email

which makes me so happy um

but we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years

which is bananas to me to anyone who is new here daddy gang orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst

and she is the star on the docuseries couples therapy where you counsel real patients about their lives in their couple dynamic.

And a new season is coming out.

Yes.

And Matt is screwed.

Because when a new season of couples therapy comes out,

I go MIA, I sit in my room and I binge the entire thing in one sitting.

So thank you.

Okay, you have to explain to me how you process all of that information like in one binge.

I think it's because I get so invested in these people's lives.

And I want to know, like, are they going to stay together?

Are they going to progress?

Like, what is the trauma that they're about to uncover?

And like, I think it feels like the most real show I've ever watched.

Like, you're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable.

But also, like, you fall in love with these people, you know?

And I love that we get to see their home life and we get to see them as, like, real humans.

And it's not just this, like, fake facade of, like, a fun show to watch people talk about trauma.

So I'll be binging.

I'm very, very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.

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On this show, I have been so open about my therapy journey.

I've been open about

having a psychologist as a mother and just like what that has allowed me to embrace in my life,

maybe where people who were raised in a home that like weren't as open about therapy, it has more of like a negative connotation and stigma

but couples therapy I feel like everyone now is like oh my gosh get into therapy it's the best thing

but couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples why do you think

there's such a big stigma around it well I think first of all there's this I don't remember

if we talked about it last time

but there's this like really intense firewall around couples in general well people do not like to share the fact

that they're having struggles

and trouble in their couple's relationship with other people

there's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of

um some kind of facade of what a couple is like especially

when people get married um so in

that sense it's not only the couple's therapy it's just the idea

that couples are having trouble is very scary for people

they don't want to talk about it they don't want to expose it.

It's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it.

It's a good point.

And I also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment,

then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling, you almost feel this shame of like, oh, I'm embarrassed.

And I feel like I can't recover from what I shared

like I definitely had moments in the very beginning of my

relationship with Matt where like I would share with a friend

if we had a fight and then I felt a little awkward

because I'm like well we're still together but like we worked through it

and and then the friend is almost like wanting to check in on you

and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up

so it's like there's this like social element of you don't need to they don't see everything right Okay.

And when you share the bad, they also don't want to leave that bad impression.

And also you're responsible.

You have another person's trust in your hand.

Yeah.

So talking about it, it's a little bit like, does your partner have the consent?

Have they given the consent?

It's complicated.

How does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner?

Funny people ask me that.

Um, I'm not of the, of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy and it's always good.

I don't think so.

Um, I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea.

If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern

that feels destructive and not like not a growth pattern

that keeps repeating and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it and nothing's changing.

You feel like you're kind of stuck

and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive

or making things worse that's a good time to bring in a third person

and and try to get some perspective on it do you feel like

if someone comes to you and is like i'm terrified he's gonna cheat

and you're like well has he given you any reason to

that he's gonna cheat and she's like no but my past

and whatever then it's like would you ever be like

so you probably need to go to individual therapy right okay yes

because it's like that that's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in

that moment right before anything that happens right I mean

but people sometimes do

that it's like they think of it as like premarital counseling

like tell me how to like avoid all the problems

that life is going to present me with

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and it's like there's no way right life's going to present you with problems

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and patterns are going to emerge

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and you can't like protect yourself against it it's life it's like go in

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and live it and and when you need to get someone to help you and then on the other end of things.

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If people wait too long, sometimes it's too late, really.

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I mean, it's a very sad thing.

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But, you know, I see sometimes a couple that come in after years

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and years of slogging it and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues.

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And by the time they come in, there's just like not enough goodwill left in them, not enough love or not enough hope.

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And as much as they try it's really hard to resurrect the relationship

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so that's interesting so that's kind of the window for me okay what

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if someone's sitting here listening orna

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and is like i want to go to couples therapy

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so badly but my partner refuses

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and has no interest like common how do you deal with

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that there's one thing which is to get over the hump of starting therapy

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which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing

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that um and that getting over that particular or hump of just the beginning is not, I don't think it's a big deal.

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I mean, I can tell people, look, just like ask your partner, give it a try or barter, you know, say something like,

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if you come with me to couples therapy, I'll offer this for you.

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I'll go your way in some other way.

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You know, we can go like take that trip I've always refused to do, or I don't know.

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Yeah.

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So getting people through the door is not that hard,

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but then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place.

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It's a place where both of them can get something out of it.

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Because I think what often people are afraid of is

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that they're going to be dragged into a therapist's office

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and they're going to be ganged up on

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and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them,

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to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them, or it's not going to be for them.

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And, you know, the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person.

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And I think once two people feel like they're really being heard, and that they both have something to gain from it,

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they're going to want to stay.

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Yeah, I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person

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that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant.

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Like, I think so many people are like, I'm literally going to get attacked.

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Yeah.

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And I guess there, if you could like explain to people maybe that are listening, like what can they expect in couples therapy?

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Because you're right.

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I think people are terrified of it.

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I think that the person that sets it up, the other person is like, oh, you guys have a plan and I'm not in on it.

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And you guys are going to try to like push me into a corner.

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Like how would you explain it to someone who has never done it but is a little trepidatious about going into it,

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but it's like, Orna, what am I going to walk into?

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That's a really good question.

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I think what I would say to people is like, think about therapy,

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about couples therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship.

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and to have in the therapist an ally of the relationship someone who can help you

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and your partner get to something

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that you actually want together meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered i mean there are moments

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when people are gonna face difficult things about themselves

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and be asked to grow and expand and maybe give more than they're used to.

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But the ultimate idea is that you're there to gain.

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You're there to gain something that matters to you.

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And if that's not happening in therapy, you're not in the right place.

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I think that's incredible to hear though, because I think anyone

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that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy happy positive thing it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize

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because you're picturing someone staring at you judging you right and

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that is intimidating because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place

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and to have someone that's like a specialist

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I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards

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you could be like oh this bitch is gonna fucking judge me

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and it's gonna tell me i have all this trauma

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and it's gonna be painful yes yeah

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and why are we opening all this up i'm fine right now yeah

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and it's like well you're fine until the next fight starts

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and then you go back to your patterns

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because of whatever happened in your childhood

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when you were in your home the way your parents treated you

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that you like it's all connected like why people don't go for example to have a mammogram

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or a colonoscopy that they're both like afraid

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that it's going to be painful fear

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and they're afraid of like what they're going to find out

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and that is not what happens in therapy

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so true it's it should feel i mean it's not like you know luna park it's not like fun fun

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but it should feel like an enriching good experience of like

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being heard understanding someone else kind of in a richer deeper way there's clarity yeah

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and truth yeah

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so i'm curious I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to you

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and are trying to learn how to manage conflict.

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I mean, it's like that's every relationship.

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How do we fight?

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How do we communicate?

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How are we going to handle these things?

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What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner?

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There's people, I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong is first of all,

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just on the simple level of, um, level of agitation.

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Like, again, like I was talking earlier about like a window, like a good window, there's a good window in which decent conversations can happen.

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And that's when you're not either too upset or too activated

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or too wounded that you can't actually process

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and then the conversation is not a real conversation it's just like either a crying screaming whatever match um

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and on the other end you can people can feel

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so um shut down or hopeless

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that they're not really engaging there's a they're withdrawing from the conversation so

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so the the maybe the most basic thing for people for

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a good conversation for good conflict would be to make sure you're in the right zone.

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You're not too shut down and you're not too over whatever agitated.

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The other big kind of still tactical issue is,

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and this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep.

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Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something?

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And when are you actually trying to understand?

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them.

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Shots fired.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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It's huge.

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It seems like it should be simple, right?

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Right.

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But it's huge.

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And I see it in my couples.

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I actually just had a session with a couple this morning, um, where they kind of realized that difference and what,

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how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing, convincing.

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Right.

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And it changes everything it does because it's like

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when you're in those moments

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you almost have blinders on where you're like i will get him to understand my point hell

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or high water yeah

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and he's on the other side being like i need her to understand what i'm saying

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and so you're just like hitting a wall

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and it's bouncing back at you and you feel crazy

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and you're like no how don't you hear me like

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and then it's like

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if you can get to a better yes you're literally yeah nothing is penetrating yeah it's like

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and people get increasingly frustrated both sides get increasingly because it's not a conversation it's not on the show you say

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and this is kind of what we're talking about,

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but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about.

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You talk about how there is usually

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so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment.

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How does one step back and see the bigger picture?

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Because it's difficult.

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Very.

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I think, I think the, you know, when, when it's in the heat of the moment, when, when the iron is hot,

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I think it's a lot to ask of people to really know always what's going on

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and what might be feeding the superficial fight.

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I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to,

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one says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this.

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There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now.

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I'm going to, if I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too,

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you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be.

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And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while and come back to the conversation,

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not in the heat of it.

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But just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity, I have an unconscious, there might be other things going on here.

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There are signals that that you give yourself when you're like, when you get too excited about something too upset,

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like when there's a feeling that you get when, when something else is going on.

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Yep.

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I love that in the show though, when you have those moments with someone, because again, I think like sometimes in romantic relationships,

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there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain.

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And like the ego does come into play sometimes.

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And so I understand

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when i watch people on the show like one person doesn't want to give it up but then

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when you ask the brilliant question of like can we pause for a minute what do you think

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this out what else is this about for you like what

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happened like what was your relationship with your mother yeah

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and then all of a sudden the person goes down a spiral like well she never gave me attention

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and i was always fighting for attention for my mother

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and then all of a sudden before she even finishes the sentence she's like oh i guess it's

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because she she never is looking at me in a way

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that i feel like i'm having to like ask her for attention like it's all these inner dynamics

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that we had growing up i know that when it's in the moment when you're

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when your partner triggers you let's say in the way your mom triggered

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you it's very hard in those moments to like step out

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and say oh it's my mother issues that are playing out right now

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because it feels so real and so intense in the moment.

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It's hard.

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It's hard for people to do.

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Do you have any advice?

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How do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight quite literally just for the thrill of conflict?

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I think people do love conflict.

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Yes.

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Give us some advice, Orna.

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I like that you're saying that, the thrill of conflict, because I talk to people about that.

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People don't usually like to acknowledge that.

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I think what I would say is,

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first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict.

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Okay.

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And I'm going to say something even slightly provocative.

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There's nothing bad with that.

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Okay.

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I know.

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Like, who is she?

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No, I'm not like, I don't think like the, I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship.

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But I think sometimes people who need to have fights

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or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship or, I think that's okay.

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I mean, it's relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark, picture perfect, like, sweetness thing.

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Right.

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It's a place where people live and discharge on each other

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and use each other and in small ways betray each other and recover.

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I think that's life.

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And I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way, for living in the relationship,

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it's just like, you know, I often talk about the fact that I don't, I don't use like, I don't even use coasters on my furniture.

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I'm like furniture is to be used like like leave a stain

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and cut through the board and and it's like that's what it's here for

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and relationships are like

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that too you want the relationship to be in a live place I think where it gets um problematic is

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if you're really hurting each other and if there's something too pernicious about it

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or if like the thrill of injury is what takes over or of retaliation or injury,

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that's when I'm like, I draw the line and I'm like, no, that is not, you're not there to like.

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um abuse each other and not every fight is an abuse that's a really great point

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because i think

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when couples say like oh we had a fight like most of the time

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you could also change it to like we had an argument

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or like we had a disagreement yeah and i think

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when you're right though like it it can be healthy to have fights because you're working through something

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but there is a difference between a fight and then something

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that is like absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere

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and it's just to push and hurt

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but i love what you said though um about how there should be conflict

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and these relationships like we're living in them i think we've watched growing up for decades

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and decades like historically

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when you think of romantic relationships

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they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in

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our life like who the hell has a perfect relationship with

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their parents with their siblings with their friends like of course you're gonna have conflict disagreements growing pains with friends

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and family why do we think that that wouldn't also be true

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and present in romantic relationships the person you're the closest to right yeah

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that you have to like live with and wake up with

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and like load the dishwasher with right right

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and i think that's like it it's it's helpful to talk about

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that to make people feel better of like of course no relationship is perfect but

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when your primary dynamics were in the household

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you were growing up in of course families are going to fight now your new family

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that you're building of course there's going to be problems

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but it's how do we actually like address the problems is it to be cutting

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and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad?

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Or is it like you're talking through a disagreement

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and like you're going to sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together?

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I need to know, and this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like, don't call us out.

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Why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting.

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Okay.

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Good question.

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How would we frame it?

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I mean, the more kind of classical psychoanalytic way to think about like why people get pulled towards like abusive

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and toxic relationships is Thank you that it's some form of what we call in jargon repetition compulsion,

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where something is unresolved, let's say a past dynamic is unresolved or past trauma,

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or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through,

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and you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved.

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Whether it's to master it, to come out of it better,

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or because there's just this kind of compulsion to just repeat the same thing.

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So that's one reason people get stuck on toxic relationships.

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But there are other ways to think about it like toxic relationships one of the things they do

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and toxic relationships I mean sometimes it's too wide a term

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I like I think maybe not I don't think

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we need to go as far as like it's abusive

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it's just like this very unhealthy like this person is constantly

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playing games constantly like is there a version of like little

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gaslighting like it's not full -blown gas like you know

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I mean yeah um it's you know I often try to like

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when I talk to people about like they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them sometimes it's um

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when a person feels on some level damage or bad about themselves or um

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shame about certain aspects of themselves they at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves

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interesting because as you were saying

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that I was having a moment where I was thinking about

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when I was in college I had been like super insecure

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when I was younger and I would go for these men

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that like it was like I was trying to get the the guy

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that was so unattainable and

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when I would get him I was like playing the game back

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but there was a part of me that like enjoyed it

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because it felt like it was like validating to me like you got him like you did it

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and it was almost like healing the wounds of me feeling like no guy wanted me

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when I was younger and like I would get picked on

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and so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team it was like

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Like I almost was going for like in my brain accolades of like I want to get

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there to prove it was more to prove to myself I can.

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I never felt fulfilled.

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I never felt happy.

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But it was like I was replaying, oh, if I was younger, these are the things I wish I could have done.

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And then I got there.

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I'm like, oh, this isn't fun.

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Right.

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Like I don't feel happy.

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I don't feel seen.

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But it was like an ego thing almost.

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Right.

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And you can and that is in a certain way you're trying to repair something.

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Yeah but sometimes it's, I mean, you can in a way flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair.

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They're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves, I suck.

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I suck.

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And what do you, what is that mostly from childhood that creates that?

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I mean, you can think of it as masochism, but it's, it's like, um, it's a, it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat.

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It's, um, self negating.

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I mean, people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them.

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That's why we have psychoanalysis.

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There are many ways that people do things that are bad for them.

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Have you found through psychoanalysis any repeating pattern from childhood

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that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy, not good enough?

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Can you share just a couple examples?

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Well, the classic example, I mean, it's kind of an extreme example

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but think of the classic pattern of people who've been let's say sexually abused as children

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and then in teenage years they're like they enter like a series of like abusive promiscuous relationships

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that just make them feel like shit

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because that's the only way they can they know how to think of themselves

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it's like an endless self -punishing cycle it's very I mean

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it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had like early abuse

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that it takes like deep work to move out of

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that pattern but you know that's so helpful yeah I think

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because I think again why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like

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I think a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to like experience therapy

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or thought about it or just wasn't a part of their upbringing like

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that statement alone could would be crazy to people like hold on

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so someone that was abused is now going to go and like

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and put themselves in harm's way right

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and they'd be like wait what like I think they just never have sex for the rest of their life

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and they'd be shut down that's just not the case

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but I think these type of conversations help explain to people like the intricacy of trauma

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and how it unfolds in your adult life but I appreciate you sharing

448

that because I'm sure I mean one in every what three women like

449

so many women listening to this show may be sitting

450

there like oh my god Orna yeah I think I'm I think I'm doing

451

that and how do you even begin to like what just therapy

452

and talking through it I know the work of therapy I mean there are other ways

453

that people deal with issues

454

but in psychoanalytic work what we do is we I mean

455

this is like a yeah it's different with each person

456

but um you basically the idea is that you try to go back

457

and revisit the actual experience

458

and help the person

459

now with their more mature mind really tend to what happened

460

to them to the injuries to to what was missing try

461

to imagine how things could get better like you really try to tend to all the areas

462

that were disavowed and neglected over the years and heal.

463

And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people.

464

Yeah.

465

Like people with that type of trauma or any type of trauma, you're like, hold on Orna, I'm supposed to go back and relive it.

466

Right.

467

Are you crazy?

468

Like I put it away.

469

I tucked it away.

470

Right.

471

But I think what people realize

472

when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power

473

and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back

474

and you can start to take control over your own life

475

and not let this thing that happened to you yeah define you yeah

476

because it does start to define you

477

when you don't right address it it comes up in your romantic

478

and your friendships and every part of your work life um

479

and that's when it gets terrifying and people it's

480

so important for people to feel like they're not like you're saying defined by bad things

481

that happened to them in the past, that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out of that.

482

Yeah.

483

Back to couples, how big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship?

484

Um, it's funny.

485

I just saw something in the, in the times today that I haven't read yet,

486

but about like people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage.

487

I think it varies a lot.

488

I think not only is sex like a you know this kind of domain

489

that could goes anywhere and people have like all possible things in their mind

490

and in their bodies and that can transpire between them

491

and sex is like a huge terrain but um the importance of sex

492

and like what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot.

493

Um, I think for some people having an ongoing connection through the body through sexuality is incredibly grounding.

494

Um, and without that they feel, um, unmoored

495

and for other people it's not like their main

496

it's not where they live

497

it's not where the essence of their life is i mean for some people

498

it might be like in the far out intellectual domain and

499

and the body is kind of a sort of byproduct

500

that they tag along but they really live in their mind

501

and they want to live there with their partner it really varies a lot between people

502

because i've had conversations with friends

503

and i have a large spectrum as you would expect like i have one friend

504

that's like my parents weren't overly affectionate so i don't find myself like

505

i don't like need sex i actually just like crave more conversation exactly whereas i have other friends

506

that are like oh i like the only way i know

507

that we're like in a good place is

508

if like we've gone too long without sex i'm like what's wrong with us like are we disconnected yeah and And I,

509

though I'm curious, if you have a couple where one is on one side of the spectrum

510

and one is on the other, that then that's tough, right?

511

It's tough.

512

Definitely.

513

It's tough.

514

If people come into the relationship with very different, let's say, love languages or inclinations, that is tough.

515

What's interesting is that couples might start off not that different from each other.

516

I mean, one might be more physically affectionate

517

or have like a stronger libido or like find sexes like where they express themselves and the other maybe a little less.

518

Sometimes what happens, and that is a problem, is that people.

519

work out other tensions or difficulties through in that arena, and then they polarize.

520

So someone could, I mean, the bedroom is often where people, sadly, work out other agendas.

521

So someone could be like mad at their partner for,

522

I don't know, like not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever, and withhold sex.

523

It's easy for them to withhold sex because that's not exactly their mode of operating.

524

But for the other party, it might feel like the worst kind of punishment and like the most threatening thing to do.

525

And then you get into the dynamic of polarization.

526

So they may not have started so different, but they're working out some other issue in that domain.

527

And that is a problem.

528

Well, that's also a problem because the person

529

that is not let's say as this is just I'm just throwing

530

this out there sexual I'm that's not the actual right term

531

but if the person that's not as sexual in the relationship has the power right

532

because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship right

533

and the person

534

that wants it is then at times probably feeling like I'm such the pursuer constantly yeah

535

I feel like I'm being rejected I feel like I'm not getting the love

536

I want where the other person is like all you care about is sex

537

because you just keep coming to me for it.

538

But then they're like, well, because you never come to me for it.

539

And they're like, because you're always wanting it.

540

And it's like, how the hell do you like, how do you approach a conversation,

541

I guess, when you're in these dynamics with these couples to like bring them back to center?

542

There's no one size fits all.

543

I mean, it really with each couple, it's a different thing.

544

but what I find happens a lot in couples therapy is

545

that you have to try to separate

546

if people are trying to negotiate other issues in a way to pull it out of the bedroom interesting

547

if you've got issues that you're working on

548

if you're resentful about other things just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're like working

549

it out unless it really is about the bedroom right

550

if you both have just complete different sex drives like how do you approach a conversation with your partner is

551

if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom like how do we

552

because that's a tough conversation and can be awkward tough conversation

553

and I would actually probably start off by assuming

554

I mean unless it's a very verbal couple I would actually not start with language okay Okay.

555

A lot of sexual needs and differences.

556

It's great to resolve.

557

I mean, if you're going to try to work on it, to do it in real time through the body, like signal through the body,

558

through nonverbal ways, what you want, what you need, experiment with things.

559

And I guess it depends on the couple, like what works for them, working it out in real time or working it out.

560

Like when you're not in the middle of a sexual encounter

561

when vulnerabilities are high passion is high it's a tricky thing to use language in those moments it's

562

so tricky because i mean unless you're in deep deep therapy like you got to be very careful

563

because you can completely shut down and like i agree to not like gender it

564

but like it let's say it is the woman coming to the man like it can just make them feel

565

so shut down where they're like how long have you been thinking about this you're dissatisfied they're feeling emasculated

566

or roles reverse the man comes to

567

and you're feeling like oh my god have you not been enjoying the sex every time

568

we're having sex who are you thinking of like sex is a very very vulnerable thing in a relationship

569

and i think you're i never thought about it

570

that way you're right it's like

571

if you can address it first with your body like let's say the person is dissatisfied

572

because ever i'm making this up like every time

573

you're having sex with your partner you're feeling like it's you're disconnected like you're having physical sex

574

but it just feels physical and there's no connection okay well instead of saying

575

that like you're right or not like maybe you're

576

when is the last time in the morning are you hugging

577

and kissing before you each leave for work

578

or no you're just kind of ships in the night

579

and you see each other and of course

580

when you're having sex of course it doesn't feel intimate

581

and special are you hugging are you touching do you hold hands like you want more connection of intimacy

582

when you're having sex put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship first before like you're right like lead with

583

that and then all of a sudden do it while you're intimate

584

while you're having sex i mean there are ways

585

that people can increase that kind of intimacy

586

while they're having sex not through words right looking at each other kissing

587

while you're having sex like maybe you guys never kissed

588

while you're having sex

589

that could feel a little like isolating where you're like this could be anyone

590

so I love that advice

591

because I do feel a lot of people write into me

592

just like I literally don't know how to tell my partner like I'm not happy

593

I think that's like a very non -daunting way to go about it.

594

It's like first just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship

595

and you don't have to have this big like blow up conversation.

596

Yeah.

597

Why blow up at all?

598

I mean, when we're talking about sex,

599

I mean, there's the other thing which is like frame things as requests as opposed to as complaints.

600

I mean, that's always a good piece of advice, which is like translate what's bothering you into a request, into an ask rather than a complaint

601

i mean the outcome could be very different can you give

602

us an example of like how it would be bad to say a verse a good way to say

603

it like you never kiss me versus let's kiss

604

it sounds so simple but like it's so not that simple

605

when you're in the moment and he's like doing the dishes

606

and you're like okay here i go here i go why don't you kiss me yeah ever

607

when we have sex you never kiss me i don't know the last time

608

that you've made out with me we're having sex

609

and he's literally like mid dishwash what happened what what just happened

610

and meanwhile it's like you also i think something i've learned in therapy a lot

611

and we did it in couples therapy was like something

612

that you have been holding on to that's why it's

613

so good to not hold on to things for too long in a relationship

614

because then you've had 19 conversations with yourself right

615

and they have no idea you've been thinking this right

616

so then when it comes out it can literally feel like a war

617

and the person is like oh my god what is happening i thought our sex life was right recently yeah

618

so you're right it's like hey you know what i would love to make out

619

when we're having sex i was thinking about

620

that like i love making out with you why don't we do it

621

when we have sex like making

622

i wouldn't even say why don't oh don't say why don't

623

nope let's let's shall we yeah shall we to the best as opposed to why don't we

624

but it's i love these conversations with you orner because

625

when we are going on our day -to -day lives like it is hard to remember all these things

626

and sometimes it's good to just have these slow down conversations of like

627

all of us are the way we are

628

because of everything that's come before us within our lives and

629

when you're standing across from your partner it is not just the day we met on our first date

630

and forward it's like no no no life existed before this person

631

and what happened to you um I'm curious like

632

when we talk about past trauma

633

because I think this is something that's like a misconception

634

I think a lot of most people assume we're talking about extreme situations

635

which we can of course we could do a whole episode on extreme situations like abuse

636

but can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adulthood

637

Yeah, of course.

638

I mean, first of all, I think it's quite popular now to talk about attachment styles.

639

But the very first patterns of relatedness that we establish with the people that take care of us,

640

often parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our lives.

641

They will set the kind of expectations we have.

642

For example, a simple and very important thing, like if you need something and you make an ask to the world,

643

will the world respond or not?

644

Like you're saying if you asked your parents when you were younger for help on something and before even ask for help,

645

like your diaper was wet and you started crying.

646

How long did it take for your parent to get there and change your diaper?

647

If you were colicky and you had like incredible stomach aches, was it even possible to help you with it?

648

Sometimes it's really difficult to help colicky babies and they start off the world with some idea that when I'm in distress,

649

the world can't always help me oh my god yeah it's like it's really like basic stuff

650

of like what what to expect from like the world like can't do i have

651

that like incredible trust that

652

when i'm in distress help will come those are really early things

653

that get established and they're not always because of neglect

654

or abuse sometimes it's just like again i mean you can be a colicky baby

655

or you could have all sorts of ways that your system is dysregulated

656

and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby

657

and then you start off with a pattern of I don't know what to call it mistrust

658

or some way that the call and response is yeah not established well

659

but I think it's important to just like highlight

660

that for a minute

661

because I can imagine a lot of people listening are like oh

662

I don't have trauma compared to my friend like my friend went this through this

663

or was abused when she was younger or did it.

664

And like, I don't have trauma.

665

It's like everyone has something that we all are the way we are because of our upbringing.

666

And I think that

667

when we.. instead of being like well my stuff is not as bad take care of yourself

668

and also recognize like hey

669

if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships we're like why do I keep doing this oh

670

and it does kind of show up at work too like I'm always pulling away

671

when someone's being nice to me I can't take a compliment

672

or I can't like as simple as that yeah where does

673

that come from and I think

674

when we start to ask ourselves the questions yes it leads us down this like little dark path

675

but it's exciting to know that there is an answer yeah

676

and you can resolve it

677

and the answer could be like really interesting actually to go down that path

678

and try to figure out it's actually it's really interesting it is it's fascinating that's why i told you

679

when i binge this show that's my answer

680

when i binge couples therapy it's because why i love it

681

and i can sit and i can handle it is like one

682

because that's just how my mother raised me like let's talk for 19 hours

683

and then some

684

but it really comes down to like I'm fascinated by the human experience of like we all grow up

685

and like what triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy

686

or overly intimate and overly trusting or reserved

687

or outwardly like very dramatic in moments and people see it as dramatic

688

but really what is it is it a cry for attention

689

because you yeah it's interesting it's endless like I love

690

it call her daddy is brought to you by t -mobile daddy gang there are honestly

691

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692

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693

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694

you something back instead of just being another bill

695

that you have to pay every single month and

696

if you're a student t -mobile has student perks plans designed specifically for you.

697

I remember being in college and constantly literally just looking for ways to save money, understandably.

698

And so these are the kind of perks I would have absolutely taken advantage of.

699

Students can get things like a $5 movie ticket every month, exclusive access to concerts, okay, and even streaming benefits.

700

So you can always have a reality TV binge night with your girls.

701

And when you're already paying for your phone every month, getting all of these extra benefits on top of it just

702

it makes sense right for all the reasons to choose

703

t -mobile find yours at t -mobile .com slash membership qualifying plan required visit t -mobile .com

704

question i think is very interesting is i actually had this from a fan was

705

which is where should someone draw the line between being supportive

706

of their partner versus taking on way too much of their partner's trauma as their own?

707

I think that the question itself is an important one.

708

There's a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of enmeshed,

709

symbiotic, lost in someone else, which is not actually an act of care.

710

it's something else um it's i guess what in in lay language is called kind of codependency

711

you know it makes me think a little bit about um

712

raising children doing everything for them is not always the best

713

thing figure out like what do they need for their own independence

714

and development when are you overdoing for your child

715

because of your own issues issues like in a way using

716

your child to to work through something versus seeing them for who they are

717

and and when do they need a bit of support and

718

when do you need to step back and

719

and let them do their own thing i mean

720

that's kind of a a very good learning ground for this difference between like overdoing it

721

and and doing it right out of care um i think there are many reasons why people get codependent

722

that are not about care for the other person.

723

Share with me.

724

I mean, you can come like a million reasons why, like getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself.

725

You're escaping like your own stuff, insecurities, all sorts of avoidance tactics.

726

I think maybe what I'm trying to say is

727

that it's important to try to ask yourself am i getting super involved

728

because i care for the well -being of this person

729

or am i answering some need of mine here hard hard to decipher that's what i was gonna say

730

because like is it is it fucked up to say like someone that has like secure attachment

731

would probably never get themselves completely down a rabbit hole in that situation because They would be like, hold on.

732

love you so much, but like, you need help.

733

And I can't get this to you where maybe it immediately turns on a light for someone of like, I'm needed.

734

I'm wanted.

735

They need me.

736

And then it becomes codependent because again, back to the beginning of this episode,

737

it's just feeling actually something within them to take care of that person.

738

And of course they think they love them and they're trying, but it also is like completely filling their cup by being like,

739

they need me and I'm here and I'm the caretaker.

740

And I didn't have that when I was younger.

741

So now I'm going to take on

742

that role like whatever it is that's a really great way of describing it yes

743

but do you think it's almost like in a way also to help someone with

744

that question is like is this too dramatic to be like it's almost like

745

when if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem you literally are cannot help

746

that person to a certain extent of course you can drive them to rehab

747

but they have to walk in the doors they have to participate in the healing

748

and you're not a professional to help the healing right so

749

when someone has this trauma you can be there

750

and cry with them and hold them

751

but it only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down

752

and if anything you could be prohibiting them from actually seeking real help

753

because there's this like codependency of like we're going to do this together right you can't you can't do that together.

754

I agree.

755

They need, they need a you.

756

Yeah.

757

Well, yeah.

758

Or a me or, uh, an AA situation or yeah.

759

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이 말하기 레슨은 영상 “Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101”을(를) 바탕으로 합니다. 이 영상에는 섀도잉할 문장 850개와 단어 9989개가 있습니다. 말하는 구간의 길이는 57:16입니다. 화자는 분당 약 174단어로, 일상 대화에 가까운 자연스러운 속도로 말합니다. 단어의 87%가 영어에서 가장 많이 쓰이는 3,000단어에 속해 어휘가 쉬운 편입니다.

이 영상의 핵심 어휘

영상에 나오는 익혀 둘 만한 단어 15개를 발음, 뜻과 함께 정리했습니다.

단어	발음	뜻
daddy 명사	/ˈdædi/	아버지, 아빠
trauma 명사	/ˈtɹɔm.ə/	외상, 손상
therapist 명사	/ˈθɛɹəpɪst/	치료사, 세라피스트
bedroom 명사	/ˈbɛdˌɹum/	침실
romantic 형용사	/ɹoʊˈmæn(t)ɪk/	로맨틱하다
toxic 형용사	/ˈtɒk.sɪk/	유독 한
dynamics 명사	/dɑɪˈnæm.ɪks/	동역학
curious 형용사	/ˈkjʊɹ.i.əs/	호기심이 많은, 궁금하다
intimacy 명사	/ˈɪn.tɪ.mə.si/	친교, 친밀함
shock 명사	/ʃɔk/	충격, 쇼크
dramatic 형용사	/dɹəˈmætɪk/	극적
sudden 형용사	/ˈsʌd.ən/	급격한
scary 형용사	/ˈskɛə.ɹi/	공포의, 무섭다
versus	/ˈvɝsəs/	대
convince 동사	/kənˈvɪns/	납득시키다, 확신시키다

영상에 나오는 구동사

단어	발음	뜻
come out 동사	/ˌkʌm ˈaʊt/	나오다
go back 동사		돌아가다
wrap up 동사		시마이치다
get over 동사		극복하다
go down 동사		내려가다
blow up 동사		폭파하다
come back 동사		돌아오다
drop off 동사		떨어지다

따라 말해 볼 만한 문장

영상에 나오는 짧고 완결된 문장으로, 일상 대화에서 그대로 쓸 수 있습니다:

You have another person's trust in your hand.
How are we going to handle these things?
Do you have any advice?
How would we frame it?
Can you share just a couple examples?

이 영상의 문법

화자가 가장 많이 쓰는 문형을 영상 속 실제 표현과 함께 정리했습니다.

문형	영상 속 표현
현재완료진행 have/has been + -ing — 전에 시작해 지금도 계속되는 동작	have you been thinking · have been holding · you've been thinking
현재완료 have/has + 과거분사 — 과거의 일이 지금도 관련이 있을 때	it's been · haven't literally seen · I've ever watched
수동태 be + 과거분사 — 누가 하는지보다 무슨 일이 일어나는지에 초점	is screwed · is brought · is offered
관계절 who / which + 절 — 사람이나 사물에 대한 추가 정보	anyone who is · people who were · thing which is

주의할 발음

화자는 you're, I'm, don't 같은 축약형과 약화된 형태를 307번 사용합니다. 들리는 대로 짧게 발음하세요.

“th” 소리: therapist /ˈθɛɹəpɪst/, thrill /θɹɪl/, underneath /ˌʌndɚˈniθ/, worthy /ˈwɝ.ði/, beneath /bɪˈniːθ/
“sh”와 “zh” 소리: shock /ʃɔk/, rush /ɹʌʃ/, establish /ɪˈstæb.lɪʃ/, passion /ˈpæʃən/, impression /ɪmˈpɹɛʃn̩/
긴 단어 — 강세 위치에 주의: intimacy /ˈɪn.tɪ.mə.si/, communicate /kəˈmjuːnɪkeɪt/, psychologist /ˌsaɪˈkɑl.ə.d͡ʒɪst/, disagreement /dɪsəˈɡɹiːmənt/, complicated /ˈkɑm.plɪˌkeɪ.tɪd/

한국어 화자가 어려워하는 소리:

/f/ — ㅍ(/p/)으로 바꾸지 말고 윗니를 아랫입술에 대기: helpful /ˈhɛlp.fl̩/, painful /ˈpeɪn.fl̩/, define /dɪˈfaɪn/, furniture /ˈfɝ.nɪ.t͡ʃɚ/, discomfort /dɪsˈkʌmfɚt/
/v/ — ㅂ(/b/)과 구별하기: vary /ˈvɛəɹi/, versus /ˈvɝsəs/, convince /kənˈvɪns/, abusive /əˈbju.sɪv/, recover /ɹɪˈkʌvɚ/
/z/ — ㅈ이 아니라 성대를 울리는 /s/: deposit /dɪˈpɑ.zɪt/, resolve /ɹɪˈzɑlv/, pause /pɔːz/, whereas /(h)wɛɹˈæz/, physically /ˈfɪz.ɪ.kli/

이 영상으로 연습하는 방법

먼저 말하지 않고 영상을 끝까지 듣고 모르는 단어를 적어 둡니다.
0.75배속으로 한 문장씩 섀도잉을 시작하고, 익숙해지면 보통 속도로 돌아갑니다.
자신의 목소리를 녹음해 원본과 비교하고, daddy, trauma, therapist 같은 단어에 특히 주의합니다.

쉐도잉이란? 영어 실력을 빠르게 키우는 과학적 방법

쉐도잉(Shadowing)은 원래 전문 통역사 훈련을 위해 개발된 언어 학습 기법으로, 다언어 학자인 Dr. Alexander Arguelles에 의해 대중화된 방법입니다. 핵심 원리는 간단하지만 매우 강력합니다: 원어민의 영어를 들으면서 1~2초의 짧은 지연으로 즉시 소리 내어 따라 말하는 것——마치 '그림자(shadow)'처럼 화자를 따라가는 것입니다. 문법 공부나 수동적인 청취와 달리, 쉐도잉은 뇌와 입 근육이 동시에 실시간으로 영어를 처리하고 재현하도록 훈련합니다. 연구에 따르면 이 방법은 발음 정확도, 억양, 리듬, 연음, 청취력, 말하기 유창성을 크게 향상시킵니다. IELTS 스피킹 준비와 자연스러운 영어 소통을 원하는 분들에게 특히 효과적입니다.

섀도잉 방법: 단계별 전체 가이드 읽기 →

쉐도잉 연습: Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101 - 영상으로 영어 말하기 배우기

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쉐도잉이란? 영어 실력을 빠르게 키우는 과학적 방법