Prática de Shadowing: Amartya Sen interview (1999) - Aprenda a falar inglês com vídeo
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Mark Yassin is the winner of the 1998 Nobel Prize in Economics.
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He was given the award for "restoring an ethical dimension to
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the discussion of economic problems." His writings have revolutionized the theory of development by focusing on the importance of freedom over wealth.
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In his new book, "Development as Freedom," he allows economics to address the social basis of the well -being of the individual.
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I am pleased to have him on this broadcast as we
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always are to have someone here who brings piercing insight into issues
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that are part of not only the discussion in the United States, but the world.
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Welcome.
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Thank you very much.
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This notion of how you feel about markets.
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and democracy, and how you feel about growth economics, working best in an economic environment that is,
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in a political environment that's a democracy, or a political environment that is a totalitarian.
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Stay.
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Yes, well I think what I'd like to think of in this context is to go with behind the institutions and
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The main approach, which actually the book also does pursue,
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is that the very basic thing which leads to social change and progress is ultimately individual freedom.
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But individual freedom, of course, is also conditional on certain social opportunities being available, political opportunities, economic opportunities.
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And my claim is that the freedoms of different kinds complement each other, just as I was mentioning in the case of the rise.
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a communal riot, so people didn't have economic freedom, had to go into hostile area and got killed.
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So economic freedom gives you more liberty there also.
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Similarly, I think political freedom gives voice.
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democracy, civil rights, open media, public discussion like we are having now, gives voice to the people who are deprived.
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And you make the point.
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Well taken, it seems, that at a time of a famine,
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A democracy is more likely to put a break on a famine than a totalitarian state.
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It's not only more likely, that's radically so.
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There has never been a famine in a democratic country, even very poor ones, like Zimbabwe, Botswana, India.
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India continues to have famine, right up to independence, which is the last one that occurred, which I saw as a child I was mentioning.
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But if you look at the famines today, they're all in countries that are totalitarian.
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Well, if you think of North Korea, Sudan, if you think of the past, the biggest famine in record history, China, 58, 61, 30 million people dead.
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Soviet Union in the 1930s, military dictatorship, one kind or another,
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Ethiopia, Somalia, Mozambique, Angola, one after another.
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And it happens because in a democracy the protest, the public voice would not allow and tolerate.
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Yeah, I would say that there are two things.
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You may be very lucky and may have no democracy and still have no famine.
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But if a famine were to develop, democracy provides a guarantee for stopping it because famines are extremely easy to stop.
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And this was one of my earlier works.
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I did a book.
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published in 1981 called Poverty and Famines, showing why famines occur because of really decline on the fortunes of a very small group of people,
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maybe millions, but still proportionately very small.
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And you can very easily stop it, even without getting any kind of assistance from abroad.
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And if a government has an incentive to do it, it can always stop a famine extremely easily.
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So that led to the second part.
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How can it do it if it has an incentive?
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Well, if it doesn't have an incentive, then it couldn't do it.
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But what I was saying that if it did have an incentive to do it, then it can carry it out very easily.
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So the economic analysis led me to the political one, and it was quite clear that in a democracy, if you have to fight another election,
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and not like being criticized by opposition parties, and not like being hoisted up by newspapers and the media,
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you would actually do something about preventing famines and that's extremely easy to do.
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And that's why, you know, even though China was in many ways doing better than India right from the beginning, from the middle of the century,
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nevertheless, India was much better able to stop famine than China
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because when the famine occurred
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and about 10 million people were dying in China each year through that period after the Great Leap Forward failed,
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there was no criticism of the government.
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People didn't even know that people were dying in such numbers.
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We now know from demographic statistics of the Chinese themselves.
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Another aspect of this, obviously, which you have talked about, and written about is whether you look at Singapore as one example, Yes.
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economic growth and a different political structure.
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And then you look at some democracies likewise in Africa, where the most progressive economic growth is taking place in a democratic establishment.
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So what rule do we bring out of that?
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I think those who have studied these kind of issues like Robert Barrow, my old colleague from Harvard and others,
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Przorsky, Limogier and others, find that actually as far as economic growth is concerned, there is no connection one way or the other very much about democracy.
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It's much more concerned with the friendliness of the economic climate rather than harshness of the political climate.
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development in terms of human security, then I think democracy has a role.
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I mean, one good example would be that East Asian, South Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Southeast Asia,
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they were all doing terribly well, and people somehow didn't miss democracy at that time when everything seemed to be going up and up together.
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and the absence of a democracy were badly felt.
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And naturally in South Korea and Indonesia, these became the big moments of democratic movement, and not surprisingly at all.
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Explain this to me and you will understand this much better.
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And I've never quite understood the reasons why.
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Here in this United States, we have a booming stock market We're creating enormous wealth for certain
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percentage of people The notion is that the rising tide raises all boats,
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Yet we have a growing disparity between wealthy and poor.
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An income inequality.
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How is that possible.
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Charlie, can I go beyond that?
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Yes.
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There is not only income inequality, that could be bad enough.
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But I think that's not where the real problem is.
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The real problem is the inequality of basic freedom to live in a way that you would like to live.
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And that includes living long, living a life without illnesses, living in a peaceful, happy surrounding, and so on.
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And if you think about that, you see the lack of health care in the United States, the lack of insurance about health care, despite the richness of the country,
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I mean it's coming back to the political discussion right now, it's actually a little scandalous.
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You know, whether 43 million people not having medical insurance, whether that's an exaggeration or not, certainly a very large number of people are.
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And sometimes it's our good, but in fact it doesn't make any difference.
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But if you look at the mortality differences between different regions of the country, and between different classes, and and between different races.
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African Americans, for example, as a group, have a lower chance of reaching any kind of age beyond 15 than the Chinese
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or the Indians in Kerala or Sri Lankans and so on.
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And why is that?
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Well, I think to some extent, lack of medical insurance plays a part.
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Educational failure plays a part.
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And sometimes it's thought that this is all connected with violence.
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And indeed, that some violence is high and that's also a social malaise.
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And family structure and lots of other things.
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Actually, in the book I study and go beyond that, even if you take beyond the age of 35, then death from violence is no longer a factor.
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And look at women, you see similar deprivation.
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And the overall impact is just radically...
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different from what the picture on income comparison would look like.
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That is, if you take the African American, It's quite often said African Americans are relatively deprived compared with American whites.
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But they're not absolutely deprived, nor are they relatively deprived compared to the third world.
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Now that's true in terms of income.
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They may have income 30, 40 times, the Chinese or the Indian.
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On the other hand, The life expectancy of African Americans in this city, in New York, or in San Francisco,
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or in Washington, is several years lower than that in India or Pakistan on an average. And
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if you took those - The life expectancy in the inner
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city of New York in many cases is lower than that of - African American, I'm talking about.
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Male African American.
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Yeah.
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And the male African American rates are very low, like 58 years.
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that's dramatically low in comparison with income.
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And you have to ask the question, what's gone wrong?
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And I think here, it's not just a question of having a democracy, but also what kind of issues could be forcefully practiced.
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That's why I'm so delighted that to some extent this issue is returning back into American electoral politics.
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Because without that, you won't have any change, really.
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Because I think the - I thought that in the discussion of both Gore and Bradley,
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at least it's...
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You're right, it is.
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Senator Bradley is trying to raise...
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Senator Bradley is trying to raise this as an issue...
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I'm meeting at one occasion, I must say, I greatly admire him.
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I think it's wonderful if he can bring those issues into the story.
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But you know, each area, it's peculiar.
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In Europe, you could not have survived with the kind of healthcare situation.
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No government would have the chance of winning an election.
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Mr. All right, but that's what I want to get at too, because for a second, if you look at the economics and the reality of healthcare and those kinds of numbers,
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rather than income equality, it's much more dramatic and blatant and powerful. as a condition.
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Yeah.
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Why do you think, even though you're expertise in your scholarly work is economics and not politics.
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Why do you think the body politic allows that in this country?
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I would like to believe, naively, that we are a good people who care about our neighbors.
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Well, I think that's an extremely interesting question, and you're quite right.
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As an economist, I hesitate to speak on it.
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But I must say, political analysis of it.
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requires to go much deeper into this because there are peculiar arbitrariness.
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In America, you can get by without health insurance being a political issue in the way you can't in Europe.
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In Europe, you can get by with double -digit unemployment levels, which no US government could have survived on.
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In India, you cannot to have a famine, but you can survive with a regular undernourishment of a kind which is very peculiarly strong.
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You could get away with it, and you change it.
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You could get away in India on gender inequality.
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It wasn't politicized, but thanks to the feminist movements and others now, and a general political change,
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women's inequality has become a big politicized issue.
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So I think it's a question of really
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the opportunity of the political leadership and the vision of the political leadership to see some of these issues.
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And I think if the medical care issue is strongly politicised, I think you'd get the kind of response that you would get in Europe.
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And that's why I remain ultimately very hopeful on that.
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But you can't really do a certain change without at the same time affecting public opinion and public discussion.
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MR. And then you can get to the interesting debate on how to do something about it.
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And therefore, honorable people can differ.
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over how to treat the illness, but once they've got to make a commitment that there ought to be, It's unacceptable.
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- Yes.
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in terms of healthcare, in terms of education, in terms of children's nutrition, in terms of all those things, that affect - Yes, absolutely.
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And I think there's no substitute to having active public discussion.
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I mean, so far as my book is trying to do anything, it's trying to draw public attention to certain things which we do know on the basis of economic, political, social analysis.
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And its bearing and development is interpreted here very widely.
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It applies to America, it applies to Europe, as well as to India and China and Africa and Latin America.
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discussion, which is really the main thing
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that the book is trying to present in terms of identifying the various kinds of unfreedom.
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It could be political unfreedom, it could be social opportunity unfreedom, and so on.
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MR. Development as freedom.
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There are many people I know.
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who I respect and admire for their achievements, who believe that Freedom and free markets are one and the same thing.
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I think that's just nonsense.
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I mean, free markets are quite an important contribution to development.
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I mean, even somebody like Karl Marx in the capital thought
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that the American Civil Wars was the most important event of his time, on grounds that it got people out of slavery into a market economy,
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into a great economy.
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And yet, you need to supplement the market economy by so many other things, democracy, democracy.
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public expenditure.
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Great guru of market economy, Adam Smith, goes on and on on the need for public education, need for poverty relief, in fact.
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So I think in many ways one has to place the market economy - Thank you.
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as one institutional aspect of a multi -institutional world.
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And anyone who wants to identify free market with freedom is as mistaken as someone who would take the view
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that you can dispense with market in the pursuit of freedom.
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You need to see it in a much wider context.
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I fear asking this, but I'm tempted to anyway, and generally I follow temptation.
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What's the best idea you ever had?
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Thank you.
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Oh, good God.
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I don't know.
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I think probably some of the ideas that I would be more pleasantly, rather more technical than easy to discuss.
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I mentioned that the novella was connected with social choice theory.
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There were issues of aggregation and so on, and there were these.
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Kenneth Arrow had an impossibility theorem showing why you cannot and your decision leads to inconsistencies.
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And really the hard work to a great extent was how you can broaden the informational input into the social analysis.
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I think to some extent that has played a part in all these things.
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The need to have a much wider informational structure to know much more, not just one small thing,
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not just income, but also how people's lives go, their health care, their educational arraignment, these turn out to be quite crucial in both the technical
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mathematical problems in dealing with impossibility as well as in terms
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of public discussion problems in making a change in the world in which we actually live.
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These ideas and others are discussed in this book, Development is Freedom, winner of the 1998 Nobel Prize in Economics.
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Thank you for joining us.
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See you next time.
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Bye.
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Sobre Esta Aula
Nesta lição, você praticará suas habilidades de escuta e fala em inglês a partir de uma entrevista com Amartya Sen, laureado com o Prêmio Nobel de Economia. A entrevista aborda conceitos como liberdade individual, democracia e suas interações com a economia e o bem-estar social. Você terá a oportunidade de aprender a expressar ideias complexas sobre temas econômicos e sociais, aperfeiçoando suaPronúncia, fluência e compreensão auditiva.
Vocabulário e Frases Chave
- Economic freedom - Liberdade econômica
- Political opportunities - Oportunidades políticas
- Democracy - Democracia
- Social change - Mudança social
- Famine - Fome
- Public voice - Voz pública
- Well-being - Bem-estar
- Totalitarian state - Estado totalitário
Dicas de Prática
Para melhorar suas habilidades de shadowing com o vídeo de Amartya Sen, siga estas dicas:
- Ouça com atenção: Preste atenção ao ritmo e à entonação do palestrante. A velocidade da fala pode variar, mas tente captar a essência do que está sendo dito.
- Repita ao mesmo tempo: Tente reproduzir as falas do palestrante imediatamente após ouvi-las. Isso ajudará a melhorar sua pronúncia e entonação. Use técnicas de shadowing site para garantir que você esteja imitando a cadência correta.
- Pause quando necessário: Não hesite em pausar o vídeo para revisar partes que você achou mais desafiadoras. Isso é especialmente útil quando se depara com vocabulário novo, como "economic freedom".
- Envolva-se com o conteúdo: Faça anotações sobre as ideias abordadas. Ao entender melhor os conceitos, você conseguirá expressá-los com mais confiança durante sua prática oral.
- Use o material em conversas: Tente incorporar as frases e o vocabulário aprendido em suas conversas diárias ou em práticas de diálogo, aumentando assim sua fluência.
Aproveite este recurso rico para aprender inglês com youtube e aprimorar sua capacidade de comunicação!
Gramática neste vídeo
As estruturas que o falante mais usa, com as palavras exatas do vídeo:
| Estrutura | No vídeo |
|---|---|
| Voz passiva be + particípio passado — o foco está no que acontece, não em quem faz | was given · are deprived · being criticized |
| Orações relativas who / which + oração — informação extra sobre uma pessoa ou coisa | people who are · independence, which is · those who have |
| Present perfect have/has + particípio passado — uma ação passada que ainda importa agora | have revolutionized · has never been · have talked |
O que é a Técnica de Shadowing?
Shadowing é uma técnica de aprendizado de idiomas com base científica, originalmente desenvolvida para o treinamento de intérpretes profissionais. O método é simples, mas poderoso: você ouve áudio em inglês nativo e repete imediatamente em voz alta — como uma sombra seguindo o falante com 1-2 segundos de atraso. Pesquisas mostram melhora significativa na precisão da pronúncia, entonação, ritmo, sons conectados, compreensão auditiva e fluência na fala.