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Having crucial, critical, constructive conversations can be challenging for all of us.
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Today, we'll discuss how to make those easier.
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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Today, I'm super excited to chat with Irv Grosbeck.
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Irv was the co -founder and co -director of the GSB Center for Entrepreneurial Studies, which he helped run for 20 years.
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And he is the co -author of the textbook New Business Ventures and the Entrepreneur.
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He teaches conversations and management for the GSB.
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And for 10 years, he taught managing difficult conversations at Stanford Medical School.
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He co -founded Continental Cable Vision, later called Media One.
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He serves on numerous boards and is an owner of the Boston Celtics basketball team.
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Irv, thanks so much for joining me.
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I am super excited for our conversation.
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Matt, thanks for asking me.
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It's a treat to be here.
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Yeah.
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Shall we get started?
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Let's do.
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Excellent.
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You've spent a lot of time as an entrepreneur thinking about entrepreneurship and teaching about it.
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To your mind, what are the key ingredients, ideas, and actions that lead to success in entrepreneurship?
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Well, Matt,
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an entrepreneur to our way of thinking is someone who is looking for opportunity without regard to the resources
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that he or she currently controls.
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So many people think, gosh, I don't have much money, I'm going to wait some time, I'm going to build up a little money
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and then I'll be able to find some business to start
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or buy and invest in and I'm not going to do that now.
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And then time passes by.
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If they think about it that they aren't the capital supplier, they're just the opportunity finder.
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Then the second key to me is to be sure that you get comfortable with the domain that you're in.
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Now, what's a domain?
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It's health care is not a domain.
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It's a whole aggregation of domains but back office support for hospitals is a domain.
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There's an old adage that we like to remind students about which is when great management meets a bad business,
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the business always wins.
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I love that idea of being an opportunity finder
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and looking for the right domains and I think that applies in daily life and in the decisions we make.
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Indeed.
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What are myths or counterintuitive ideas that you want people to know about entrepreneurship?
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Well, there's a common perception that still lingers among many people that entrepreneurs are a certain personality type.
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They're bombastic and they are attracted to risk and they're egotistical.
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And indeed, the best entrepreneurs are antithetical to that.
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They are thoughtful people who try to shrink every possible modicum of risk out of what they're doing. And further,
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to be sure the risk they must assume
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or choose to assume is execution sensitive rather than what the economists would call exogenous or uncontrollable.
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Do you think entrepreneurs are born or can they be made?
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A lot of people think 300 hitters in baseball are born, but boy, some of them get there by hard work.
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And that's how I feel about entrepreneurs.
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I had no idea I would be an entrepreneur.
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I wasn't exposed to any growing up.
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I didn't even understand or think about that path.
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So was it in me all the time?
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I don't know.
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I rather suspect not.
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But I came to it.
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And I think so many of our students I've tracked over the years feel the same way.
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I believe that all of us can become more entrepreneurial
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if we allow ourselves and we surround ourselves with the opportunities and the people who can help.
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You teach courses both at the Graduate School of Business and the Stanford Medical School, where you used to teach, that help students with challenging situations.
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Of all the various communication challenges you work on with your students, what is one that is most difficult for them to handle?
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And what coaching do you provide them to help them with that?
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So I think a difficult one is when they are in a tough conversation and new information comes to light,
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they don't change position because they worry about how they look.
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And indeed, if they think about serving the organization, they need to change position.
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And if it's too hard to change position right there in the spot, The next important thing to do is to tell the person,
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let's take a deep breath here.
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I need to reflect on this new information.
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Let's meet tomorrow at 9 o 'clock and continue this conversation.
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So certainly changing position is difficult, difficult for all of us,
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but particularly difficult starting out when many students as entrepreneurs have the imposter syndrome.
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A second one is really hard for students to be brief,
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especially when they're uncertain and nervous about the context
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and the person on the other side of the desk and what they're saying.
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They tend to be elliptical, to repeat themselves.
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Brevity conveys conviction.
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Getting them to say it in a third of the words is something we often ask them during class. And finally,
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I would say it's really hard for students not to make
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difficult conversations all about them rather than all about the other person.
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Difficult conversations are really very little about the person who's the initiator of the conversation in most cases.
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Focusing on the issue and the other person and his or her needs is counterintuitive.
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Those are three really important bits of advice that you gave,
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that we have to not allow our entrenched or previous position to lock us into a way of thinking, especially when new information comes to us.
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Brevity and allowing ourselves to be other -focused rather than self -focused in these critical conversations is so important.
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You mentioned the notion of imposter syndrome.
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I'd love to get your perspective on that.
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A lot of people listening in, myself included, I have times or bouts of imposter syndrome.
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How do you help people think about that and perhaps avoid falling into that trap?
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I've simply said you're well qualified to be in the position you're in.
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The reason you feel that way may be that you haven't done it before, but you're in a position to do it,
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and so dig in and do the best you can, and that will most oftentimes be sufficient.
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I think that notion that novelty plays a lot into it.
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This is the first time I've done this, or I don't have that experience to rely on.
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And reminding yourself that that's okay, and in fact, the opportunity is there because of the successes and traits that you demonstrate.
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Yeah, it's okay and it's normal.
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It's normal to feel that way.
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Many of the topics that you teach your students can be very provocative
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and anxiety -provoking how do you help your students manage those various communication situations that you present them with?
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So our students, we're lucky enough to be teaching smart students.
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And if you tee up a problem and ask the students to give you a few,
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give you some answers to how that problem might be solved, they'll probably come up with pretty good answers despite their lack of experience.
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And then you say, well, that involves talking to so -and -so.
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So how would you begin that conversation?
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Blank looks appear.
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It's so hard to translate recommendations into effective action.
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Many students say, hey, how was your weekend?
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Well, you know, that doesn't set quite the right tone this isn't a jolly social conversation, this is serious stuff that we want to work on together.
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And so helping them start that conversation, once they get into it, they can probably get going,
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but setting the tone, setting the first few things you're going to say is really helpful for them.
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Do you have specific ways you like to suggest that people start these challenging situations, certain words or phrases or just things to think about that could give us guidance?
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The magic word in many of these conversations is we.
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If you can have a difficult conversation in which both you
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and the other person are looking together at the problem
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or set of issues and trying to find a solution that works for both parties,
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it makes it non -adversarial or at least lowers the temperature as opposed to you're missing quota,
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you've got to do better or we'll have to let you go.
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If I knew, let's assume as a salesperson, if I knew how to do it, I would have already done it.
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I need help as opposed to I'm going to work with you consistently over the next two months.
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It'll be obvious both to you and me, whether we're successful together.
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And I think we will be.
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If not, we'll have to part ways, but I don't expect that to happen.
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Well, that's a conversation that is a shot across the bow, but it also says, I'm going to work shoulder to shoulder with you,
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as opposed to go out there and do better.
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Absolutely.
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It's very collaborative.
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It sounds like you
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and I have a similar approach to these situations where we
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need to see the as opportunities to problem solve through collaboration versus just declarations.
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And it can really make a big difference.
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I know you use role -playing as a means to teach the skills
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that you teach and helping people to deal with these difficult conversations.
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Would you be willing to put me through one of these role -plays
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and coach me as if I were one of your students?
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Oh, good.
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Well, we'll have some fun.
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So you are Sarah Wilsey, athletic director of the fictitious National University.
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You manage 32 sports.
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You have a team of 60, excluding the coaches.
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You have four associate athletic directors, of which I, Tom Steele, am one.
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So I had a successful career.
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I'm a mid -career person.
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I had a successful career as a Division III athletic director, and I came to National hoping to find a Division I AD job.
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Your position became open, and I applied for it, but I lost the position in favor of you.
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So you have received three independent reports from people in your group whom you respect.
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And those reports all say that I'm bad -mouthing you behind your back.
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I'm criticizing you.
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I'm criticizing your decisions.
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And I'm a real negative influence around here.
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And so you've gone to your executive coach and said, what do I do? and the executive coach says you have to have a conversation with Tom Steele.
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You don't joke around, Irv.
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That's a potent situation.
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I'm questioning my desire to do this.
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So this is a puncture in the culture?
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Yes.
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At GSB, we talk an awful lot about culture and we talk about the leader of the organization being the culture carrier.
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Part of that responsibility is to repair punctures in the culture.
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So I would be thinking about going into this situation, I would be thinking about what's my objective.
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And my objective is one, I want to make it very clear that this is causing issues within the culture.
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And second, I want to make it clear that I am here in support of Tom,
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but that the expectation is that Tom will be supportive of the culture.
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And if there are issues that he has with me or the organization, that he will bring them up.
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That's a perfect summary of your goals.
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Good.
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We're off to a good start.
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Thank you.
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Tom, it's come to my attention that you are expressing concern about the way I'm doing things.
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Part of my...
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Wait, who told you that?
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These are...
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We have a very open culture here,
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and I expect and ask for people to give me feedback and insight into what's working and what's not working.
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And several in the organization have presented conversations where they have heard you talk about disagreeing with,
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or in some cases, actually insulting my actions.
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You mean I don't get to know who my accusers are?
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This is a sort of a blindside.
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I don't understand this.
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Well, I'm surprised that you see this as a blindside.
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We have a culture here where you and I give each other feedback all the time.
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My goal here is for us to focus on the relationship you
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and I have and the role that you fulfill within this organization and the impact that your thoughts and actions have.
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And together, I believe we can come up with a way to not only help you voice your ideas
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and opinions in a way that I can hear them and direct, but also to continue the culture that we together are building.
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I think you're doing a great job, and I actually don't know what you're talking about.
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Well, to me, I've heard in a few instances that
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when we talked about our new program to offer further education for some of our new members of our team,
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that you thought that that was a waste of time, that they would learn most by being on the job.
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Okay, okay, I understand.
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Well, I want to make one thing clear.
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Never ever have I criticized you personally.
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Now, as far as the education initiative goes, You remember that when we discussed it in advance, I didn't think it was a good idea.
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and yet it was put into place.
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And so I've simply commented that I didn't agree with the decision.
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I mean, I don't understand exactly why isn't that normal.
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It is absolutely normal and appropriate to share opinions and ideas.
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The tone and timing of those opinions are important, and then they can convey information.
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As a respected leader on this team,
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you and all of us in the leadership role need to be very thoughtful about when we voice our concerns and opinions.
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We are role modeling at all times the culture
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that we want to be and I hope that you feel comfortable sharing your opinion.
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I just want to make sure that we don't create an adversarial relationship
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because I am fully supportive of the work you do for us
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and I have seen the value that you bring to this organization.
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Okay, well I understand and I'm in agreement with that.
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I guess my lips are sealed after the decision.
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Regardless of how I feel about it, I'll have to suppress my views.
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I certainly don't want anybody on this team suppressing their views, but I do want us to be all thoughtful about how our views
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and how we communicate those views might have a broader impact.
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Wow, you are good, Irv.
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I am sweating as we have this conversation.
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Share with me the feedback about how I did or the things that I could do differently or better.
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I'd love to learn as your students do for you.
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I thought you were extraordinary.
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I thought it was very polished yet substantive.
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This is an actual vignette we teach in class.
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A couple of things I would have added would include if I kept denying, I would say, I use a phrase like,
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well, we need to get past denial and talk about the future.
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So please bring your disagreement after the decision is made only to me.
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Otherwise, it looks like bad -mouthing the decision and maybe me, even though I know that's not your intent.
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And then you could have added in at the very end, and this is kind of frosting on the cake.
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Look, Tom, I want and need your support.
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I think I'm in a position to support you in your own career goals of becoming a Division I athletic director.
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I hear of a lot of opportunities and openings.
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I'm in a position to tell you about them and also to write you letters of referral.
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I can't do that unless we're working together.
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So you're really at a crossroads here.
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I hope we can close ranks.
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I do respect you.
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You add a lot of value here.
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If we can't close ranks, it's going to be necessary to part ways.
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I really take to heart that notion of naming the behavior that I'm seeing.
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In our conversation was purposefully not naming some of the things because I was trying not to make the person defensive.
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If I were to say denial, I felt that might cause the person to be defensive.
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But in hearing how you said it, I actually see how it punctuates the point
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and coming to the end of the conversation and being very clear about what's needed, closing the ranks, and the fact that I can support you,
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but if this doesn't work, we might have to reevaluate.
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Very helpful.
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We've talked a lot about talking and what we say.
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I'm curious to get your opinion on listening.
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What's the value of listening in these crucial conversations, and what advice do you have to help people listen better?
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I often compare persuading, which is an essential quality of leadership, with salesmanship.
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And no one ever bought anything while you were talking.
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So say what you're going to say and pause.
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Pauses show respect.
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They show respect that I want to hear what you want to say
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and I want to stop talking and I don't wish to dominate this conversation.
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Open space is really the ally of the person conducting the conversation.
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We often talk about listening as getting the information you need so that you can process and then communicate.
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But listening, as you've just shared, demonstrates openness, demonstrates a willingness to listen and seating the floor and showing,
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I value what you have to say.
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We are a careers podcast, and I know you have advice for people who are choosing careers or considering changing careers, what career guidance can you share with our listeners?
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I think in terms of paths.
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And I often say to the student, I know this is a daunting question and you don't need to answer it now,
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but it might be useful to go back and think about where you'd like to be in 10 years.
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I'm thinking as much about context as I am about domain or sub -industry, I'm thinking, do you want to be in charge?
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Do you want to be one of several partners in charge?
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Which side of the river are you on, operator or advisor?
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Are you a consultant, investment banker, commercial banker, other advisor?
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Or are you running a business or part of a business?
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That first decision is one that many of our students have not made yet.
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Thinking about context is particularly useful because it rules out part of the world.
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Well, I don't think I necessarily want to be the managing partner, but I'd like to be a partner and so forth.
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Well, you've just ruled out enormous parts of the world.
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Now come back to where you are and say, what are logical paths to get there?
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What do I need to do to get there?
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If I want to be on the operating side of the river, it's not useful for me to get more analytical experience.
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You know, I was a good analyst before I got to business school.
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Now I'm an even better analyst.
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Do I need to do more analysis?
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No. What do I need to do to be an operator?
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Well, how about I get into some sort of operating position
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where I have to do some work of a certain quality
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or perhaps over a short period of time I get to hire some people and supervise them.
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So let's not go over to the other side if we don't want to be on that side, and we've already been on it for a long time.
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Yet, it's amazing how many people take what they perceive to be the safe route.
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For the first time perversely in their careers, there is no safe route.
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There are risks at whatever they choose.
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There was no risk in what college they went to.
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They got to go to any one of four wonderful colleges.
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Same with business school, most likely.
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Same with the jobs in between.
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This idea of thinking about the future and considering the context to help us make decisions, so many of us play to our strengths and our comfort zone.
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And the advice you're giving us is to take ourselves out of that and look and be more strategic.
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Exactly.
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So, Irv, as we close, I'd like to ask you three questions.
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One, I make up just for you, and two, I ask all my guests.
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Are you up for that?
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I am.
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As a teacher myself, I know that while we impart lots of information, We also learn a tremendous amount from our students.
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I'm curious, what is something you've learned or continue to learn from your students that you find helpful?
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I'm constantly reminded, be careful in the words I choose,
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irrespective of how supposedly good at this I am.
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I'm always trying to be better and to choose a better word or a better tone, be more sensitive.
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They constantly remind me to be that way.
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Some of their reminders are negative examples, but amazingly, and one of the attractions of teaching is
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that I actually learn a lot from their phrasing occasionally and their sensitivity.
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I got an email the other day from a student with a little sort of reminder, if you will, at the bottom.
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Try to be kind whenever it's possible.
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Dash.
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It's always possible.
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I'm curious for our second question.
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Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
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I'm a great Warren Buffett fan.
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I think Warren Buffett has all of the elements of a great communicator.
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He can be whimsical, light.
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He's direct.
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Now, have I seen him in a lot of difficult conversations.
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No, a few where shareholders ask barbed questions from the floor, but not very many.
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I come away from those conversations thinking, boy, what a nice person he is,
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how smart he is, and how thoughtful he is about new things that he says.
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I picked up a phrase that he said, we should always be redefining the edge of our competence.
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What a wonderful idea.
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Warren Buffett is very approachable, yet you absolutely do not question his credibility.
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Final question for you.
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What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
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Directness with respect.
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So many of our students feel quite properly that if you're direct with someone, somehow that's harsh.
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The art of good conversation management, I think, does involve directness and respect at the same time.
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The second would be strength with warmth.
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And by strength, I don't mean power.
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I mean decisiveness.
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But I want to convey my decisiveness, not like I'm putting down a fiat that they have to follow,
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but that this is the path that makes the most sense, and I'd be glad to talk with them about it.
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I'm soliciting their support for it, and I respect what they've done.
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I think that those two can go hand in hand, and that is definitely something that the students resist at first.
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The third one is don't mistake vagueness for compassion.
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Being vague with somebody is actually not being compassionate.
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That's particularly true in medical situations where they really want to know where they stand
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and they deserve to know where they stand in the kindest way.
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That's true in business settings as well.
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I think of difficult conversation management as a performance art.
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I don't go into a difficult conversation unless I've actually said the words in advance.
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I have talking points.
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Talking points do not suffice.
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It's a practice art.
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I'm not going to go out and play the violin in front of people unless I have the piece rehearsed.
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So much richness there.
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Many of us want to be nice and kind, and sometimes that impacts what we really need to do in the circumstance.
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And I'll end by simply saying, I 100 % agree.
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Communication is something you have to practice.
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It's not just talking points.
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It's not just thinking through things in your head.
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You actually have to practice the words coming out of your mouth before you enter into the situation.
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Irv, this has been fantastic.
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Thank you for your master class on communication.
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It's been a pleasure, Matt.
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You're doing great work here.
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Thank you for including me.
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Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast from Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Reilly, and me, Matt Abrahams.
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For more information and episodes, visit gsb .stanford .edu or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts.
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Finally, find us on social media at Stanford GSB.
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We'll be right back.
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このスピーキングレッスンは、動画「Directness with Respect: How to Make the Hard Conversations Easy」を教材にしています。 この動画には、シャドーイング用の文が351文、単語が4184語あります。 音声の長さは27:21です。 話す速さは1分あたり約153語で、日常会話に近い自然なペースです。 単語の84%は英語の頻出3,000語に含まれます。残りは練習の前に確認しておきましょう。
この動画の重要語彙
動画に出てくる覚えておきたい単語15語を、発音と意味つきで紹介します。
| 単語 | 発音 | 意味 |
|---|---|---|
| entrepreneur 名詞 | /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ/ | 企業家, 起業家 |
| tone 名詞 | /ˈtəʊn/ | トーン |
| remind 動詞 | /ɹəˈmaɪnd/ | 思い出させる |
| athletic 形容詞 | /æθˈlɛt.ɪk/ | 強壮 |
| curious 形容詞 | /ˈkjʊɹ.i.əs/ | 好奇心の強い, 知りたがる |
| helpful 形容詞 | /ˈhɛlp.fl̩/ | 役に立つ, 有用 |
| feedback 名詞 | /ˈfiːdˌbæk/ | フィードバック, 反応 |
| phrase 名詞 | /ˈfɹeɪ̯z/ | 句, 語句 |
| syndrome 名詞 | /ˈsɪndɹoʊm/ | 症候群, シンドローム |
| notion 名詞 | /ˈnoʊʃən/ | 概念 |
| podcast 名詞 | /ˈpɑdˌkæst/ | ポッドキャスト |
| criticize 動詞 | /ˈkɹɪtɪsaɪz/ | 批判する, 非難する |
| entrepreneurship 名詞 | /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ.ʃɪp/ | 起業 |
| sensitive 形容詞 | /ˈsɛn.sɪt.ɪv/ | 敏感な |
| strategic 形容詞 | /stɹəˈti.dʒɪk/ | 戦略的な |
動画に出てくる句動詞
| 単語 | 意味 |
|---|---|
| go out 動詞 | 出る |
| rule out 動詞 | 除外する, 排除する |
| go back 動詞 | 戻る, 帰る |
| grow up 動詞 | 成長する, 大人に成る |
| pick up 動詞 | 拾う, 拾い上げる |
繰り返し練習したい文
動画に出てくる短く完結した文です。日常会話でそのまま使えます。
- Many students say, hey, how was your weekend?
- Wait, who told you that?
- You mean I don't get to know who my accusers are?
- What do I need to do to get there?
- Do I need to do more analysis?
この動画の文法
話し手がよく使っている文型を、動画の実際の表現とともに紹介します。
| 文型 | 動画での表現 |
|---|---|
| 条件文 if + 節, will/would + 動詞 — 条件とその結果 | if I kept denying, I would say |
| 現在完了形 have/has + 過去分詞 — 過去の出来事が今も関係している | You've spent · I've tracked · I've simply said |
| 受動態 be + 過去分詞 — 誰がするかより、何が起きるかに焦点を当てる | are attracted · are born · wasn't exposed |
| 関係詞節 who / which + 節 — 人や物について情報を加える | someone who is · about which is · people who try |
注意したい発音
話し手はI'm, don't, you'reなど、短縮形や弱形を115回使っています。聞こえたとおりの短い形で発音しましょう。
- 「th」の音: athletic /æθˈlɛt.ɪk/, thoughtful /ˈθɔːtfəl/, myth /mɪθ/, warmth /wɔɹmθ/
- 「sh」と「zh」の音: notion /ˈnoʊʃən/, entrepreneurship /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ.ʃɪp/, crucial /ˈkɹuː.ʃəl/, associate /əˈsoʊʃi.ət/, occasionally /əˈkeɪʒənəli/
- 長い単語（アクセントの位置に注意）: entrepreneur /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ/, entrepreneurship /ˌɑn.tɹə.pɹəˈnɝ.ʃɪp/, operator /ˈɑpəˌɹeɪtɚ/, communicate /kəˈmjuːnɪkeɪt/, ingredient /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/
日本語話者が苦手な音：
- /r/ と /l/ の区別 — /l/ は舌先を歯茎につけ、/r/ はどこにもつけない: crucial /ˈkɹuː.ʃəl/, necessarily /ˌnɛs.əˈsɛɹ.ə.li/, regardless /ɹɪˈɡɑɹd.lɪs/, reflect /ɹɪˈflɛkt/, rely /ɹɪˈlaɪ/
- /v/ — /b/ にならないように、上の歯を下唇に当てる: sensitive /ˈsɛn.sɪt.ɪv/, solve /sɒlv/, defensive /dɪˈfɛn.sɪv/, objective /ɒbˈd͡ʒɛk.tɪv/, involve /ɪnˈvɑlv/
- /f/ — 「フ」ではなく、上の歯と下唇で出す: thoughtful /ˈθɔːtfəl/, helpful /ˈhɛlp.fl̩/, feedback /ˈfiːdˌbæk/, phrase /ˈfɹeɪ̯z/, defensive /dɪˈfɛn.sɪv/
この動画での練習方法
- まず声を出さずに動画を最後まで聞き、知らない単語をメモします。
- まず0.75倍速で一文ずつシャドーイングし、慣れてきたら通常の速度に戻します。
- 自分の声を録音して元の音声と比べます。entrepreneur, tone, remindなどの単語に特に注意しましょう。
シャドーイングとは？英語上達に効果的な理由
シャドーイング（Shadowing）は、もともとプロの通訳者養成プログラムで開発された言語学習法で、多言語習得者として知られるDr. Alexander Arguelles によって広く普及されました。方法はシンプルですが非常に効果的：ネイティブスピーカーの英語を聞きながら、1〜2秒の遅延で声に出してすぐに繰り返す——まるで「影（shadow）」のように話者を追いかけます。文法ドリルや受動的なリスニングと異なり、シャドーイングは脳と口の筋肉が同時にリアルタイムで英語を処理・再現することを強制します。研究により、発音精度、抑揚、リズム、連音、リスニング力、そして会話の流暢さが大幅に向上することが確認されています。IELTSスピーキング対策や自然な英語コミュニケーションを目指す方に特におすすめです。