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I'm old enough to remember watching television in black and white.
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And the day we got our first color TV, my mind was blown.
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The same thing is true when you go from just focusing on verbal messages to thinking about nonverbal communication.
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My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
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Today I am really excited to talk with Dana Carney.
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Dana is the George Quist Chair in Business Ethics at Berkeley's Haas School of Business.
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This year she's on sabbatical from Berkeley and is spending time with us here in the management group at the GSB.
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Her research focuses on the nonverbal ways in which we communicate our biases, our preferences, our power, and our status.
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Her forthcoming book on nonverbal behavior is expected at the end of the year.
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Welcome, Dana.
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I am really looking forward to our conversation.
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Thanks for being here.
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Matt, thank you so much for having me.
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I was so excited when you reached out.
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Should we get started?
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Absolutely.
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Dana, I'm so excited for this conversation because I have long been fascinated by your research and nonverbal communication.
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When I teach nonverbal communication, I reference the three V's: visual, verbal, and vocal.
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Visual is what we see verbal, is the words and fillers and spaces that we have.
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And then vocal is how we say those words.
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I'm curious.
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Do you see nonverbal communication the same way?
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And how do you explain it when you talk about it?
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Almost the same way.
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First, there's two big circles, like a Venn diagram, overlapping circles.
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One is the perception side.
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What are the nonverbal behaviors that we need to pay attention to
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when we're trying to make sense of or understand other people or situations?
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Then there's the expression side, which is what are the behaviors that we can use as tools to to express or land a particular attribute.
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So I would layer those on top of your three Vs. And then I would add, when you said visual, I would split that into face and body as separate channels.
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So nonverbals gives us a whole set of tools through which we can communicate information.
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And some of it are things we can control, as you mentioned, and other things are things that perhaps are a lesson our control.
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We convey information through the words we say, but also how we say it, and the demeanor with which we say it.
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I find this fascinating because there's this whole other channel that we often don't think about.
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Can you discuss how our perceptions of power and status are influenced by nonverbal communication?
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So it's an entire chapter in my book.
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In the chapter, it's called The Five Nonverbal Rules of Power.
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And what it is is a Venn diagram where the perception nonverbals, the ones we need to know to read power accurately,
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and the ones that people think are associated with power they intersect and there's five areas of non -verbal behavior that
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If we remember those, we can really tap into power.
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I'll give you two that I think are particularly useful because people have a lot of control over them.
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One of them is eye contact.
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When you look at someone when you're speaking, and when they're speaking.
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you're really taking up space with your eyes.
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You're not only saying, I see you, I hear you, but also I'm speaking to you and distributing that around the room.
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You're almost spreading yourself around the room when you're looking around there.
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So eye contact is one that we have control over and it's easy to force yourself to distribute and to use.
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And it has additional benefits.
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Not only does it convey power, but it conveys intelligence and, and warmth so you just can't go wrong with eye contact.
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So that would be one that I would say is one that everyone can practice and use.
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And another one is expansion.
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And I don't just mean with your body.
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I don't just mean taking up physical space with the bubble that's around your body.
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I mean expansion in all kinds of ways.
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So taking a longer time to say what you're saying.
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If you take more time, you're taking up space.
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So you see, there's a number of ways of taking up space.
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You can do it with how much you speak, how slowly you speak, physically, like spreading your body out in a way that feels comfortable.
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So those were the two, I would say, are easy to control and there's a version of each that most people could probably find.
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So taking space and connecting through space through eye contact, really important.
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That example of all the things we could do to take space shows the different types of paint
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that we can use to paint in this nonverbal way, right?
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It's how you say it, how long you say it, how you physically show up and not just you personally, but the stuff you put in front of you.
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All of that.
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And there's this whole conversation that's happening at that level.
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that we perceive that we don't necessarily consciously think about.
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I want to dive just a little deeper.
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Clearly, culture and context plays a role in this.
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Some cultures I'm aware of, eye contact is actually seen as rude because you're supposed to defer.
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What's your take on the intersection of culture and context when it comes to nonverbals?
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Eye contact, there's not a lot of variability across culture when it comes to the speaker.
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making eye contact with others.
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It's where the rudeness or the cross -cultural variability in whether
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or not you're being disrespectful comes from whether you're looking at the speaker when you're being spoken to.
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So it's when you're on the receiving end of being yelled at or, you know, reprimanded or whatever, looking back is typically where you see the variability.
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Not if I'm the speaker and I look at you. But.
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Yes, context matters, culture matters.
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So what I like to say is that, There are certain sort of pillars.
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that are safe spaces.
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For example, If you're trying to convey warmth, looking at someone, being a little bit closer to them.
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How close varies by culture.
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but proximity in general is associated with intimacy.
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Body orientation toward.
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These are all cues called immediacy cues, directing your communication toward them,
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like you're talking to them and smiling or nodding like you're doing now.
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You're encouraging me, smiling and nodding.
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Those are called back channel responses.
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They unconsciously or implicitly are saying.
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I hear you, I see you, I recognize what you're saying, we're on the same page.
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There's a cluster of things that convey liking.
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And so there might be some variability around how close or how much eye contact But generally speaking, those are safe.
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And so when we go to another culture, we just need to figure out what are the boundaries around.
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If I go to one culture, it's two kisses, kiss, kiss.
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Other cultures, there's three kisses, kiss, kiss, kiss.
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Other cultures, it's the left cheek for another right cheek.
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So it's kind of like those things.
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It's a nonverbal version of how many cheeks do I kiss and how many times, right?
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I appreciate that answer.
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It's very nuanced and there's complexity to it, but that's the reality of nonverbal communication.
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This is not simple.
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I'm taking several things away from what you said.
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One that there's some foundational principles or as you said, safe spaces around which there's nuance that is culturally learnable.
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And we just have to be sensitive to that.
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And so the big message I'm taking away is we just have to build awareness and be sensitive.
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We can ask, we can observe, we can research to learn what's appropriate and not appropriate and know that.
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by invoking the appropriate nonverbals, we can achieve goals like demonstrating warmth and liking
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that can really help us in ways sometimes that our words don't allow us to do.
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Exactly.
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I have another question for you about the relative value of nonverbals and actual messages.
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Where do you fall on the relative importance of verbal content versus nonverbal behavior?
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In other words, what we say versus how we say it.
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No, I don't think any reasonable scientist would say that nonverbal is more important than verbal.
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I think most of us would say both are extremely important.
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If we're in a domain where I have a reason to lie, or maybe I don't know, like racial bias and discrimination being one, right?
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People aren't aware of their biases, or they are aware of them, but maybe not the extent to which they hold them.
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Then we get into some territory where nonverbals start to be maybe more meaningful than verbals
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because I don't realize that I have biases.
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I think that when you get into territory where
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Either people don't have introspective access to how they think or feel or they have their incentivized not to reveal it.
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Right.
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Like in an economic game or a strategic interaction or a negotiation.
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That's where nonverbal becomes really fun and interesting and useful because words aren't enough in that case.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So they're both important and sometimes differentially important depending on the context.
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Which again brings us back to this notion of context.
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So I have an example I always use when I teach.
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If you're in a doctor's office and the doctor says, how are you doing?
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That means one thing.
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If you're at a bar or at a party and somebody says, how are you doing?
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That means something very different.
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The words are the same.
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The environment and context is different.
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And we somehow know how to navigate through that.
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But also we can run into a lot of trouble when we misunderstand.
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Yes.
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And this is why knowing what our goal is, is so incredibly important.
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If I'm at that bar and my goal is I'm attracted to this person. And so.
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I want to convey some attraction.
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So I might dip into some cues associated with attraction or being attractive.
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So when people use a breathier voice, they can come off as a little more attractive versus I'm a doctor.
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And my goal is empathy.
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I want you to know that I'm listening.
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So the first thing you need to think about in a context is what's my goal here?
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If I'm a doctor, I want to make sure that my patient feels well, heard and Understood?
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If I'm in a bar and I just truly want to know how someone's doing, I don't want to use a vocal tone that might express attraction.
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I might want to be more casual or upbeat, like, hey, how you doing?
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Use colloquial kind of tone of voice with a lot of vocal variability that might be associated with having a good time.
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So that's the first thing to do is what is my goal in this social interaction?
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And look, all of this stuff is happening in a fraction of a second, right?
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I mean, we don't sit down and script out what we're going to do before I'm going to go to the bar.
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And when I see this person, I'm going to say, hey.
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I like to think about nonverbal communication as a language because once we kind of know, what's the list of cues associated with liking?
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Which ones of those are associated with platonic liking versus intimate liking?
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And when I do this one, oh gosh, I don't mean to be sending the wrong signal.
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So now you know not to do that.
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And which behaviors are associated with being trusted?
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Which behaviors are associated with conveying power?
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That I think really will help us think about how can I best land whatever it is
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that I am trying to land.
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We've talked often about this notion of having a goal when you communicate.
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By default, I think many people think of the words that I say.
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And what I'm hearing you say is we have to expand
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that goal to be thinking about how do we achieve that goal, not just through the words we say, but how we say it.
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And that's really, really important.
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This notion of There's a language.
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And we have to understand and become fluent in that language.
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And some are more fluent than others.
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Perhaps we have a time to talk about The people receiving that language, you know, if I'm at a bar and hope that you're signaling attraction to me, I'm going to be looking for things in a way that I might not.
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If I weren't the rose colored glasses, if you will, which I think is a separate conversation about our perception of nonverbals, not just our signaling of nonverbals.
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Sometimes the nonverbal cues overlap, but if the audience takes one thing away from this conversation about nonverbal communication,
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it's that there are perception and expression and they're different and also they overlap.
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And the easiest places to memorize what are the cues are the places of overlap,
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which is when we talked about the five nonverbal rules of power and I gave you two of them you know, that they're at the intersection of both perception and expression,
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which is, those are the nice ones to memorize and practice because they do both.
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Excellent.
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I want to keep this notion of language and fluency.
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What are some things that we can do 2 become more aware of our nonverbal communication, how they come across.
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You know, when I'm learning a language, I practice with people who say, no, your accent's off or you're saying that wrong.
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What are some things that we can do to actually become more fluent?
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How can we learn about it?
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I ask my students to digitally record themselves as they practice so they see their nonverbals and they watch it.
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and then they listen to it separately.
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So they're hearing the different channels.
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What advice do you have about ways to help us become more conscious of what we're doing, because a lot of this is unconscious.
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Yes.
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That is exactly right.
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Hearing or seeing ourselves.
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So watching yourself is a really big way to know how at least you perceive yourself.
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I would add some layers on top of that.
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First of all, In an exercise like that, write down beforehand, what are two goals that you have for that interaction?
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Do I want to try to come off as, really smart here?
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Do I want to be warm?
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Am I trying to make new friends?
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Am I trying to do well in this negotiation?
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Am I trying to do well in this negotiation and...
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Retain friends.
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What's my goal?
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And then I watch that video or listen to the audio
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and I try to assess whether I appropriately land it that way.
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At least did I think...
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that I correctly sent the messages I intended to send.
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That's one piece of the puzzle.
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But that's your perception.
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Now it's a matter of what did other people perceive?
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A big part of it is I intended to be kind.
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And when I look at myself, I seem to be kind.
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But we lack self -awareness about how we come across sometimes.
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And other people will see us and say like, oh, no, no, no.
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Let's say our faces tend to be a little cranky and we know that we smiled three more times in that interaction.
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So for us, we're like, I was so nice in that interaction.
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I smiled three times.
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I never smile.
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So for us, we knew it was a big deviation from our baseline.
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And so we think we landed in a really warm situation positive way.
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But a stranger or another person with whom we interacted, if they were to watch and make ratings on those same dimensions.
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might give us a much lower score.
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which helps us assess, OK, so how I intended to land and whether or not I was successful.
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And then there was, how did other people perceive that?
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And so that's the missing piece in that puzzle is, How do other people perceive you?
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And I'll layer a bit more on top of that, which is, How do strangers perceive you versus friends or people who know you a little bit?
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This is really useful in that we can all look to better understand our nonverbal presence in terms of how it's landing.
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We have our intent and we can see it, and we have knowledge relative to our baseline, but we also have to seek outside of ourselves.
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And when we do that, we also have to think about how much information does that other person have?
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That's really insightful and in fact, It's going to change the way I have my students look at their own behavior.
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Exactly.
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I like to say the only way to get better at communication, verbal or nonverbal, is three things: repetition, reflection, and feedback.
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You have to practice, you have to reflect, and then you have to give feedback.
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Dana, before we end, I'd like to ask you some questions.
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The first question will be unique to you.
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And then the other two are questions I ask everybody.
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Are you up for that?
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Yep, sounds great.
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Is there a particular nonverbal behavior that you look to to assess credibility and confidence when you're talking to others?
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What is it that you look for as an expert in this?
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Is there one thing you look for?
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Yes.
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We have not talked about coherence across channels.
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We talked about different channels of communication, the voice, the body, the face.
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But we haven't talked about consistency across those channels.
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I'm looking for consistency across channels.
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If my face and my body and my voice and my words, if all of those things are quote unquote saying the same thing,
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That makes me feel like that person is kind of full in that way.
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I feel comfortable with them.
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Not only that they know what they're talking about and they know whatever they're saying is probably true.
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That is the thing that I pay attention to the most.
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And if people are inconsistent across channel, it doesn't necessarily mean something's arrived,
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but it's something I pay attention to because it provides information about Are they conflicted?
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about what it is they're talking about.
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I appreciate you sharing with us this notion of coherence because we've really dissected nonverbal communication into these very specific parts.
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And we have to remember that there's a totality and whole that gets communicated.
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And that we can assess that as well.
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It's not just, did you make eye contact?
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It's, is the eye contact consistent with the body posture, with the vocal tone?
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And the words.
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And the words to help.
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Thank you.
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Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
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Winston Churchill.
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Ah, tell me more.
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The two reasons I think that he's just one of the best communicators that I, or the one that I probably look up to the most is that,
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I mean, he was so effective in being able to grab the hearts
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and minds of an entire country and to galvanize people.
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And the second reason is that Winston Churchill turned a speech impediment into his greatest source of power.
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He had to stutter and he, He turned that into pause.
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Because of his stutter, he learned to pause a lot and to use those pauses extremely effectively.
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Truly an amazing communicator, and he worked hard.
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Final question.
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What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
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So first of all, we had talked about goals, right?
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You have to know what your goal is.
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If you don't have clarity, at least a little bit of clarity about what your goal is then you're not going to be very effective.
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So my goal today was just to be clear.
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I didn't quite know where we were going to go.
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I just knew that it was important for me to, whatever it was, that I was going to get it across in a way that was at least a little bit succinct.
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Then knowing the nonverbal behaviors that land best for us, And that goes back to what we were talking about,
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the baseline, knowing how we typically are, So that we can figure out like, okay, I need to dial up the warmth.
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I don't come across warmly at all.
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Like, gosh, I kind of seem mean and I'm not mean at all.
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It's not that you're trying to be something that you're not.
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It's that you are something, but it doesn't come across.
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And you're like, oh, gosh, I need to.
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How do I fix that?
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Right.
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And I think, That's where your idea of practice.
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So then it's, knowing which cues I can...
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Dabble in.
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There's a long list of immediacy cues
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that you can look at to try to practice and try on to figure out which one suits you the best, literally.
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And then what you said, practice.
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And it's not about faking it or not being authentic.
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It really is about, I am a nice person.
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Or let's say you're not a nice person.
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Let's say you truly are not a nice person.
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Let's say you're a cranky person.
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But there are some times that you're nice.
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And let's say your goal is to be nice right now.
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So my advice is, Try to think about the times that you want to be nice
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or that you are nice or that you truly feel nice and say like, OK, what are the things that are most comfortable for me to do when I am being nice?
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and then tap into those behaviors.
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because those are the ones that are comfortable for you.
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And then practice them and they do, in fact, land the way you intend them to.
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So those are the ingredients.
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It's having a goal.
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knowing the best nonverbal behaviors that land what you're intending to land. And then...
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practicing, right?
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Just making sure that you're doing them in an unconscious way, that you don't have to spend a whole lot of time thinking about it, that they're just automatically coming out of you.
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So be clear on your goal, be clear on your baseline and practice.
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So Dana, thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom.
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People can't see this, but I'm bowing my head and putting my hands together to demonstrate gratefulness.
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And I have my hand on my heart and I'm nodding my head to you saying thank you so much.
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Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast from Stanford GSB.
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To learn more about nonverbal communication, please listen to episode 12 with Deb Grunfeld or episode 16 with Bert Alper.
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This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
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Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
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Please find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Be sure to subscribe and rate us.
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Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.
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And check out fastersmarter .io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.
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O que você vai aprender
Nesse vídeo, você descobre como a comunicação não verbal influencia a percepção de poder e status, além de praticar habilidades essenciais para falar inglês com confiança. Aprenda a usar o contato visual de forma estratégica, uma ferramenta que transmite não só autoridade, mas também inteligência e calor. Além disso, entenda como dividir a comunicação em canais (fala, voz, rosto e corpo) para se expressar de forma mais clara — essencial para prática de conversação em inglês.
Ouça esses sons
Na conversa, observe como as palavras se conectam: "got our first" (gɔt aʊər fɜrst) vira "gotta first" (gɑːtə fɜrst) por causa da ligação. Também ouça a redução em "I'm old enough" (aɪm oʊld ɪˈnʌf), onde "am" se torna "m" e "enough" é pronunciado de forma mais suave. Esses detalhes de connected speech ajudam a melhorar sua compreensão e a falar de forma mais natural, importante para melhorar a pronúncia em inglês.
Fale como um nativo
Para imitar o ritmo e o destaque dos falantes, preste atenção ao stress nas palavras-chave: "communication", "nonverbal", "power". Repita frases como "the same thing is true" com a mesma entonação ascendente no final, que mostra interesse. Use o shadowspeak (técnica de repetir imediatamente o que ouve) para treinar a sincronia: pause o vídeo, repita "eye contact is one that we have control over" com a mesma velocidade e clareza. Essa prática ajuda a internalizar o fluxo da língua, essencial para aprender inglês com YouTube de forma eficaz.
Gramática neste vídeo
As estruturas que o falante mais usa, com as palavras exatas do vídeo:
| Estrutura | No vídeo |
|---|---|
| Voz passiva be + particípio passado — o foco está no que acontece, não em quem faz | was blown · is expected · been fascinated |
| Present perfect have/has + particípio passado — uma ação passada que ainda importa agora | We've talked · have not talked · haven't talked |
| Orações relativas who / which + oração — informação extra sobre uma pessoa ou coisa | side, which is · people who say · that, which is |
O que é a Técnica de Shadowing?
Shadowing é uma técnica de aprendizado de idiomas com base científica, originalmente desenvolvida para o treinamento de intérpretes profissionais. O método é simples, mas poderoso: você ouve áudio em inglês nativo e repete imediatamente em voz alta — como uma sombra seguindo o falante com 1-2 segundos de atraso. Pesquisas mostram melhora significativa na precisão da pronúncia, entonação, ritmo, sons conectados, compreensão auditiva e fluência na fala.