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Conversations can be brutal, but with a little preparation and bridging, you can have amazing communication.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm excited to have another conversation with my friend, Rachel Greenwald.

Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard Business School and a professional matchmaker and dating coach.

Rachel is an expert on communication and relationship building, not only in the dating arena, but also in the workplace.

She's here on campus at Stanford to co -teach a class with Professor Tina Selig called Designing for Love.

Well, welcome, Rachel.

I am so glad you decided to revisit us, and it's great to be in person this time.

Thanks for being here.

You're welcome.

Thanks for having me back.

Excellent.

Shall we get started?

Let's do it all right the last time you were here we talked a lot about small talk

and you gave very actionable useful advice

that i use to this day to start

and to exit small talk the white flag approach you taught was amazing

and i really quote you often with the point

that small talk is about being interested and not interesting and

if any of you want to hear rachel's advice on small talk go back to episode 217.

So if those were sort of the entry -level, beginner -level small talk advice and tips, can you give us some advanced advice,

black belt -level small talk tips to help us better communicate and help us avoid that dread we all feel?

Yeah, everybody hates small talk because mostly it's so boring and awkward.

So I think

that moving up the scale to graduate -level small talk advice is really about moving from playing defense to offense.

So defense is more like coming up with good answers to basic small talk questions, which we talked about last time.

But playing offense is more about being strategic with your small

talk game to help your conversation partner learn something about you that might lead to a desired goal that you have.

So this is really where your personal brand comes in, where I want you to find a bridge out of the initial stages of small talk

that leads towards a topic that makes you unique and memorable.

So here's an example.

Maybe you're on a date or you're in a job interview.

You want it to go well.

So you think a little bit ahead of time, what is it that makes me unique from all the other dates

that he's been on this week or all the other candidates he's interviewed this week.

And in your case, Matt, maybe it's that being a podcast host is unique.

You don't meet those hosts every day.

So what I want you to do is find a bridge

that is going to take you from a basic small talk question like, how are you, to something that allows you to talk about being a podcast host.

So for example, if I say, how are you?

You might say, oh, I'm actually doing great today.

I just interviewed a really interesting guest on my podcast, and she told me all about organic wine.

And so now you've sort of bridged into this more interesting topic.

The key, though, is that you have to have a plan going into these type of conversations

because you can't expect to just come up with something like that on the spot.

I mean, think about if you're an athlete, you wouldn't just start exercising, you would do some stretching and warming up before the exercise.

So there's all sorts of examples like this.

For example, in a job interview, let's say one of the personal brand attributes that makes you unique is that you're gritty.

You have a lot of grit.

Maybe you walk into a job interviewer's office

and he's got a photo of himself climbing a mountain behind him on the desk.

And so you could do this bridge where you say, oh, I noticed that hiking photo over there.

I'm curious where that hike is because actually I just climbed Kilimanjaro this year and it was so hard, but I did it.

And so here you're moving basic small talk into something that is strategic on your part,

demonstrating your personal brand that is grit in this case.

So what I really hear is it's about branding and bridging and how you connect those two.

And what's required there is to be a little strategic

and to think in advance about what are those things that make me unique.

What advice do you have as we reflect on our personal brand?

We've had Seth Godin and Dori Clark on the show, and they've talked about personal brand as well.

But as a matchmaker, I'm wondering if you have a specific way of thinking about brand that we could all benefit from.

I do.

I mean, I think that the first thing to say about

personal branding is that it gets a bad reputation as being manipulative

or like you're bragging or showing off if you talk about something that makes you unique or special or memorable.

So I think the first thing is you have to get

that out of your head that I think the better metaphor about personal branding is

that it's almost like you're walking into a restaurant and the hostess is greeting you at the host stand.

She can either make basic small talk with you and say something like, how are you?

Would you like a table?

Or she could hand you a menu and essentially say, what looks good here tonight on the menu?

So essentially, she's focusing the initial greeting on the chef's specials and what are the signature items at the restaurant.

So once you've got the right attitude about personal branding,

the easiest shortcut to what is a personal brand is to come up with three traits or skills that makes you unique.

So Seth Godin talked about this in Purple Cow, about basically how to be unique and memorable.

And so I think you just come up with three things that feel authentic, but also unique, kind of the Venn diagram of who you are,

but what's unique about that.

So maybe you're on a date, for example, and let's say your three personal brand traits are that you're adventurous.

Maybe you once appeared on Shark Tank and you're from North Dakota.

You know, being from North Dakota is not like being from New York or California.

It's unique.

So you will pick something that is part of that personal brand

and find a bridge out of small talk into focusing on something that makes you memorable.

You may not be the only one on Shark Tank.

You're not the only one who's from North Dakota.

You're not the only one who's adventurous.

But you might be the Venn diagram of those three things,

and that is a great place to start when somebody on a date might say to you, you know, what do you do?

You might be able to think in advance, well, I'm going to talk about being on Shark Tank

because that's always good fodder for interesting conversation and the crazy things that happened that one time I was on TV.

And so somebody says, what do you do?

And you might start off by saying, well, I'm an entrepreneur, but I have to tell you, I've only had 15 minutes of fame.

My company may not be doing very well right now, but once I was actually on Shark Tank and I have the craziest stories about Mr. Wonderful.

So you brought up the topic

and you've really served up an interesting menu to your conversation partner about something to talk about right away.

I really like the idea of delineating your authentic differences in your brand as circles that overlap in a Venn diagram.

A lot of people say just list out all the different things.

But the physical representation and overlaps is what I think can be really interesting because that is what makes you unique.

100

There might be a lot of people who have tenacity and a lot of people who have deep knowledge in one area, but that overlap makes it unique.

101

And I like that idea of helping us identify it that way.

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And then thinking of yourself as a host or a hostess who has to focus that initial interaction, I really like that as well.

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You know, many of us struggle in conversation in general, but the real struggle is that first beginning part, that first 60 seconds.

104

Do you have advice on how to maximize and set ourselves up to enjoy that beginning part?

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I feel like once I get over that hump, it becomes much easier.

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You're exactly right.

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Those first 60 seconds are the worst.

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Taking an improv class is always great because that helps teach you to roll with any situation.

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But beyond that, there are two other things that I coach my dating clients on.

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So the first thing I tell people to ease that first minute is topic prep.

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So to think about in advance, again, you're like an athlete stretching and warming up for the exercises.

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Topic prep involves just taking a minute

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or two before you walk into a conversation you're maybe going to a business networking event

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or on a date or a job interview

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or even catching up with a friend and you pause

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and think of three things that you're curious to ask in advance

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so if it's stranger you're meeting you can google them

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or find their instagram or look for clues and some messages you've had

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so far from what they might be interested in And...

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But for example, let's say you looked at their Instagram in advance of somebody you're meeting on a date

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and you saw that this guy had a photo of himself fly fishing.

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So maybe that's one of your three topics that you've prepped in advance

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and you are going to ask how he became interested in fly fishing.

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And maybe that's going to lead to a story about how his dad taught him to fly fish

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and it was bonding and that opens up conversation about his family.

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So I think being prepared is super important.

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There's another really interesting trick that works especially well in almost every situation.

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And it is a Latin phrase called in media race.

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And in media race means literally in the middle of things.

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So this is where you start a story in the middle.

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Kind of like if you've ever seen a TV show where they start with a robbery in progress

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and then the show cuts to a phrase on the screen

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that says three days earlier and it hooks the listener to show what led up to that moment. In conversation,

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this looks like starting a story in the middle is something

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that you actually did the last time you and I had a phone call.

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I don't know if you remember this.

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I remember the phone call.

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I don't remember this, though.

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Tell me, what did I do?

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As soon as we got on the phone, I said to you something like, thanks for accommodating my schedule to talk on a Saturday.

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And you said, well, there I was, toilet shopping with my mom when the reminder for our meeting popped up on my phone.

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And so I was immediately hooked.

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Toilet shopping for your mom?

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What on earth is the backstory to that?

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And you just launched into in media rights in the middle of a story, something that was unexpected and intriguing.

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And it really just helped us get over very quickly those awkward first 60 seconds of small talk.

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I'm glad I demonstrated that.

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So let's just say it was an explosive situation that needed to be fixed and we took care of it.

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Again, the advice is to do some preparation, even though conversations are spontaneous, to take the time to do some preparation,

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that reconnaissance, reflection, and research on the person or people you're interacting with can be really helpful.

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And the goal is not to script out the communication, but it's really to find the opening for further conversation is what I heard you say.

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And that to me is a very different way of approaching.

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So it's not just, what do I say to start it?

154

It's what do I say to open up the conversation?

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And I like the idea of starting in the middle.

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As somebody who teaches people how to give presentations, that's definitely a technique that can be used.

157

And I like that you apply it to conversation.

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Well, I want to talk about how we did prepare for this interview on that phone call on that Saturday.

159

You and I had a conversation about handling taboo topics, things like money, religion, sex.

160

You have some really useful ideas about how to discuss these types of topics, which turn out to be really important as we develop deeper relationships with people.

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Can you share some tips and tools to help us talk about topics that might be taboo?

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People tend to avoid taboo topics because they're fearful of controversy or having awkward moments.

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But I would invite people as they move away from small talk

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and start to grow and deepen a relationship with somebody to reframe taboo topics as really a gateway to deepen connections.

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So for example, what that looks like is not focusing on the facts of the taboo topic,

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not what do you think about it?

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Are you in favor of it or against it?

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Those are facts about a taboo topic like money, sex, or religion, but really to focus on the stories and emotions behind those topics.

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So, for example, if we use the taboo topic of money, it's always somewhat awkward to talk about money for most people.

170

So let's say you've been dating somebody for a few weeks

171

or months and you want to start assessing if your values align on an important topic like money.

172

So instead of asking a factual -based question like, do you consider yourself frugal with your money or do you spend lavishly,

173

you might ask a question that evokes a story like, what did your parents teach you about money when you were growing up?

174

Or you might ask a question like, what's the first thing you bought with your own money and why was that important?

175

So here you're getting at the why of what they feel

176

and not a factual black or white answer in terms of whether they align with what you think about the topic.

177

Even though money is one of these topics that people argue a lot about in marriages, what's important is how you argue,

178

not what you're arguing about and not whether you're on the same page, but how you resolve conflict when it arises.

179

So taboo topics and using those to get into storytelling about how someone's belief system was shaped,

180

especially at a young age,

181

is really this kind of gateway drug to making taboo topics a vehicle for deeper connection.

182

So several things there that I really like, that talking about topics that can be challenging actually deepen the relationship.

183

And a great way to do it is through asking questions designed for people to explain why, tell stories, help me understand how you came to this rather than what it is you believe.

184

We had Wendy De La Rosa on and we talked a lot about money

185

and she had similar advice that talking about money in her case, but in all these topics, it's really an act of demonstrating care and concern.

186

And that's what deepens those relationships.

187

And I love the idea of just soliciting stories from people that allow you then to have, again, deeper conversations.

188

Really good advice.

189

Hi, Matt here.

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Training someone new or explaining a process takes time.

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205

Well, Rachel, you've been here before.

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You know that before we end, I ask everybody three questions.

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One, I make up just for you.

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And two, I've been asking people for a long time.

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And feel free to repeat what you've said before or come up with different answers from your previous visit.

210

Are you ready for these?

211

Absolutely.

212

Excellent.

213

As a matchmaker, your clients go out on dates every night all over the world

214

and the date outcome entirely hinges on them having a good or bad conversation.

215

How do you evaluate a successful or unsuccessful date

216

when you're not there yourself and you're just listening in to what they tell you?

217

How do you assess a good conversation?

218

Oh, I love that question.

219

The truth is I have one simple question that I reflect back to them.

220

And I ask them, what side of you did they bring out?

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So what I'm not asking is information -based questions.

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I am not asking, you know, did you like them?

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Or what information did you learn about them?

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Or was there a spark?

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You know, those are typical questions that your friends might ask you when you get back from a date.

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I'm asking what side of you did they bring out to help me determine if this was a good or bad date.

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So if their answer is something like, well, he brought out my playful side,

228

or maybe she brought out my confident side, then I know it was a successful date.

229

But if their answer was something more like, well, actually, he brought out my insecure side or, I don't know, she brought out my competitive side,

230

that's when I know it didn't go well.

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I really like that question for assessing conversation, not just on dates, but in general.

232

You know, what part of yourself showed up or was able to be shown off in the conversation?

233

And I think we can all do that ourselves.

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We don't need to just go to somebody who's an expert like you and think about that.

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I really like that.

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I appreciate that question.

237

Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

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I've thought about this since the last time I was on the show

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and I'm gonna.. tell you about a personal friend of mine named Katrina.

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And the reason I admire her so much is that she always makes me feel good when I talk to her.

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And she does two specific things that always make me feel good.

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First of all, she has a signature expression that she uses all the time.

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And the expression is, it's not lost on me.

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So she'll say something like, it's not lost on me that you have an early morning tomorrow and you didn't cancel our dinner tonight.

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I really appreciate that you came out and spent this time with me.

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So she's just finding a way to show appreciation.

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And it makes me feel so good, especially when it's something so minor.

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It's cancel our date?

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Like that's a pretty low bar, but here she's feeling so appreciative.

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I think that expression is something that everybody should use more of.

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And then the second thing she does is she leaves a lot of voice notes for me instead of texting me.

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And I think this is a really

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underutilized feature on our phones because it's not only unique from everybody else that's texting you,

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but it's more personal and it creates an emotional connection when I hear her voice.

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And so I would say eight out of 10 times that I communicate with her is her leaving me a voice note.

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Now, I also appreciate that it's not as intrusive as a phone call

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because that would be her interrupting something else I'm doing.

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But, you know, the voice note is just that beautiful, happy medium where I get a personal and emotional connection with her,

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but it's on my own time when I listen to it.

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So I think those two things, appreciation and emotional connection, are really what make her a superstar communicator.

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Well, I'll start by saying it's not lost on me that you spent a little time thinking about this deeply, and I appreciate that.

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And taking the time to express appreciation

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and finding a unique way to connect with somebody where your true voice in the case of a voice memo comes out.

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I appreciate that.

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Well, the final question, Rachel, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

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The first ingredient is mood.

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I think not enough people think about how they make someone feel when they're talking to them.

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And so the idea here is that if somebody says something to you like,

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I love to ski, you might respond by saying something like, me too, if you're the mirror, or you might respond by saying something factual,

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a question like, where's your favorite place to ski.

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That would be a very legitimate response.

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But a mood -based response to somebody who says they like to ski is more like saying to them,

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tell me the last time you went skiing and you really loved the day.

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And that kind of evokes a time for them when they felt good.

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And you're invoking a positive memory by asking a question that is focused on them telling a story.

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It's promoting connection and it's not garnering information,

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but really creating a moment between the two of you where

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they're affiliating the positive mood they are calling up from their memory with almost like conflating it with you

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because you're the one that's experiencing that with them.

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The second ingredient, I would say, is an acronym I use all the time, which is DBB, don't be boring.

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I think not enough people use DBB, don't be boring, as a lens to filter their conversation.

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And so if you can start to remember that every time you go to answer a question in a conversation,

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first do a quick check, is this boring?

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And if it is, come up with something more interesting because boredom is just the enemy of conversation.

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And last, I guess the ingredient, I would say, is probably vulnerability.

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Not just showing the polished version of yourself, but really telling a story that's real and humble, maybe self -deprecating.

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You could talk about a challenge you're having.

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You could talk about an embarrassing moment.

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You could talk about a regret.

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And it's not about bringing the mood down or being negative, but really just being aware that the polished version of you where everything's great and you're amazing.

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is a lost opportunity for connection all of your three ingredients have to do with connection

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i i really like the idea of setting the mood through the things you ask

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and the interaction you have and that mood does transfer you know from

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if i'm having a good time telling you a story i'm having a good time with you

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and this notion of as you begin to respond in a conversation you have choices of what to say.

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Choose the option that's less boring.

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And then finally, being vulnerable, being authentic, really powerful.

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Rachel, like all of our conversations, I learned so much from you.

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I really appreciate it.

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This notion of thinking first and planning before we go into conversation,

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considering how we bridge into the topics we want to have

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and how we can bring out the best in others and ourselves were really important.

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Thank you.

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Thanks for having me.

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It was a pleasure as always.

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Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

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To learn more from Rachel Greenwald, please listen to episode 217.

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This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

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Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts be sure to subscribe

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and rate us also follow us on linkedin tiktok and instagram

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and check out faster smarter .io for deep dive videos english language learning content

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and our newsletter please consider joining our think fast talk smart

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learning community at faster smarter .io slash learning you'll find video lessons learning quests discussion boards an ai coach

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and book club opportunities again that's faster smarter .io slash learning to become part of our learning community.

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FOR YOU

Лексика и советы по произношению к этому уроку

Этот урок разговорной практики уровня B2 построен на видео «Small Talk Tips From a Matchmaker: Start Your Story in the MIDDLE!». В этом видео 315 предложений и 4319 слов для шедоуинга. Речь длится 26:53. Говорящий говорит в естественном темпе, около 161 слов в минуту, близком к повседневной речи. 85% слов входят в 3000 самых частых слов английского языка; остальные стоит разобрать перед занятием.

Ключевая лексика этого видео

Самые сложные слова из видео (15), с произношением и значением:

Слово	Произношение	Значение
taboo существительное	/təˈbuː/	табу́
scribe существительное	/skɹaɪb/	пи́сарь, писе́ц
podcast существительное	/ˈpɑdˌkæst/	подка́ст
ingredient существительное	/ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/	составна́я часть, ингредие́нт
bore глагол	/boɹ/	надоеда́ть, надое́сть
deepen глагол	/ˈdiːpən/	углубля́ть, углуби́ть
memorable прилагательное	/ˈmɛm.(ə)ɹə.bl̩/	па́мятный, запомина́ющийся
matchmaker существительное	/ˈmæt͡ʃˌmeɪkɚ/	сват, сва́ха
factual прилагательное	/ˈfæk.tʃ(u)əl/	факти́ческий, действи́тельный
align глагол	/əˈlaɪn/	равня́ться, стро́иться
diagram существительное	/ˈdaɪ.ə.ɡɹæm/	план, диагра́мма
authentic прилагательное	/ɔˈθɛn.tɪk/	по́длинный, достове́рный
assess глагол	/əˈsɛs/	определя́ть, определи́ть
appreciation существительное	/əˌpɹiː.ʃiˈeɪ.ʃən/	благода́рность, призна́тельность
demonstrate глагол	/ˈdɛm.ənˌstɹeɪt/	пока́зывать, показа́ть

Фразовые глаголы, которые вы услышите

Слово	Произношение	Значение
come up with глагол		придумывать, приходить в голову
come out глагол	/ˌkʌm ˈaʊt/	выходи́ть, вы́йти
get over глагол		преодолева́ть, преодоле́ть
bring up глагол		воспи́тывать, воспита́ть
check out глагол		проверя́ть, прове́рить
grow up глагол		расти́, выраста́ть
make up глагол	/ˌmeɪk ˈʌp/	составля́ть, соста́вить
show off глагол		рисова́ться, красова́ться

Фразы, которые стоит повторять

Короткие законченные фразы из видео, которые пригодятся в повседневном разговоре:

Would you like a table?
Tell me, what did I do?
Toilet shopping for your mom?
It's what do I say to open up the conversation?
Are you in favor of it or against it?

Грамматика в этом видео

Конструкции, которые говорящий использует чаще всего, с точными словами из видео:

Конструкция	В видео
Present Perfect Continuous have/has been + -ing — действие началось раньше и продолжается	you've been dating · I've been asking
Present Perfect have/has + причастие прошедшего времени — прошлое действие, важное сейчас	he's been · We've had · I've only had
Пассивный залог be + причастие прошедшего времени — важно, что происходит, а не кто это делает	be fixed · was shaped · is aligned
Придаточные определительные who / which + предложение — уточнение о человеке или предмете	people who have · somebody who teaches · somebody who says

Произношение, на которое стоит обратить внимание

Говорящий использует 76 сокращённых и редуцированных форм, например you're, I'm, you've. Произносите их коротко, так, как слышите.

Звуки «th»: authentic /ɔˈθɛn.tɪk/, athlete /ˈæθ.liːt/
Звуки «sh» и «zh»: appreciation /əˌpɹiː.ʃiˈeɪ.ʃən/, preposition /ˌpɹɛpəˈzɪʃən/, notion /ˈnoʊʃən/, actionable /ˈæk.ʃə.nə.bəl/, appreciative /əˈpɹi.ʃətɪv/
Длинные слова — следите за ударением: ingredient /ɪnˈɡɹiːdi.ənt/, appreciation /əˌpɹiː.ʃiˈeɪ.ʃən/, adventurous /ædˈvɛn.t͡ʃɚ.əs/, communicator /kəˈmjuːnɪkeɪtə/, preposition /ˌpɹɛpəˈzɪʃən/

Звуки, трудные для русскоязычных:

/w/ — губы округлены, это не /v/: gateway /ˈɡeɪtˌweɪ/, workplace /ˈwɝkˌpleɪs/
/h/ — лёгкий выдох, а не русское «х»: hostess /ˈhoʊstɪs/, hike /haɪk/, humble /ˈhʌmbəl/
Звонкие согласные в конце слова — не оглушайте их: scribe /skɹaɪb/, appreciative /əˈpɹi.ʃətɪv/, intrigue /ˈɪntɹiːɡ/, specialize /ˈspɛʃəˌlaɪz/, maximize /ˈmæksəmaɪz/

Как заниматься с этим видео

Прослушайте всё видео один раз молча и выпишите незнакомые слова.
Начните со скорости 0,75×, повторяйте предложение за предложением и вернитесь к обычной скорости, когда станет легко.
Запишите себя и сравните с оригиналом, обращая внимание на такие слова, как taboo, scribe, podcast.

Что такое техника Shadowing?

Shadowing — это научно обоснованная техника изучения языка, изначально разработанная для подготовки профессиональных переводчиков и популяризированная полиглотом доктором Александром Аргуэльесом. Метод прост, но эффективен: вы слушаете аудио на английском от носителей языка и немедленно повторяете вслух — как тень, следующая за говорящим с задержкой в 1–2 секунды. В отличие от пассивного прослушивания или грамматических упражнений, Shadowing заставляет мозг и мышцы рта одновременно обрабатывать и воспроизводить реальные речевые паттерны. Исследования показывают, что это значительно улучшает точность произношения, интонацию, ритм, связную речь, понимание на слух и беглость речи — что делает его одним из самых эффективных методов для подготовки к IELTS Speaking и реального общения на английском.

Техника шедоуинга: читать полное пошаговое руководство →

Практика Shadowing: Small Talk Tips From a Matchmaker: Start Your Story in the MIDDLE! - Изучайте разговорный английский по видео

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Лексика и советы по произношению к этому уроку

Ключевая лексика этого видео

Фразовые глаголы, которые вы услышите

Фразы, которые стоит повторять

Грамматика в этом видео

Произношение, на которое стоит обратить внимание

Как заниматься с этим видео

Что такое техника Shadowing?